darrylta Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Today I noticed an ATF business card at my front door. I emailed the investigator and asked if there was anything I could help her with. Is it a common occurrence to be visited by the ATF if your a FFL-03 holder / NFA owner? Or did someone snitch me out for one of my rants calling B.H. Obama a ball faced lying, dyed in wool Marxist traitor that has done more harm to this country than all the terrorist organizations and a 1,000 Osama's put together. Or could it be that I fly the US and Gadson flag at my house. -Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwiifirearms Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Hmm. I have had it happen twice, neither were Radom or routine. Once I bought a number of guns at an auction and the dealer failed to fill out a multiple handgun form. Just happened I left the country the day after the auction. Those two facts were enough to launch a 5 month investigation leading to the card on the door. No crime had been committed and all was forgotten after a short interview at the local police station. Second time was because someone was sending letters to the ATF claiming all kinds of stuff and it turned out to be about someone with the same name as me, but wasn't true about either of us. That one took several interviews and a lie detector exam before they decided I was OK. Hopefully your's is less complex. Personally I talked to my lawyer before I talked to them. I knew I had not done anything wrong, but it was still not fun thinking of what might happen if they felt I had. -wwiifirearms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) I spoke with the agent today. They want to go over my Trust C&R FFL-03? Most likely to void it :-) -Darryl Edited August 22, 2011 by darrylta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmarvin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 My business partner has his C&R revoked from his trust. Legal picked it up on a transfer. They let that one get approved and then he had to surrender it. No other issues beyond that. This was after a half dozen form fours were approved. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 bmarvin, are you saying that the C&R issued was in the name of the trust and not the individual, or the other way around? I am a C&R holder who is thinking of forming a trust, is there then no way my trust can receive a direct transfer of a C&R firearm because an FFL cannot be issued to a trust? Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmarvin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 He had a C&R in the name of his trust. Legal at ATF ruled that the trust could not have a C&R. My C&R is in the name of an LLC and that is fine. Go figure. Brian bmarvin, are you saying that the C&R issued was in the name of the trust and not the individual, or the other way around? I am a C&R holder who is thinking of forming a trust, is there then no way my trust can receive a direct transfer of a C&R firearm because an FFL cannot be issued to a trust? Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james m Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) bmarvin, are you saying that the C&R issued was in the name of the trust and not the individual, or the other way around? I am a C&R holder who is thinking of forming a trust, is there then no way my trust can receive a direct transfer of a C&R firearm because an FFL cannot be issued to a trust? Mike Hammer My understanding is that people have been doing this for years because it avoids the CLEO sign off and the fingerprinting requirement. I had also been hearing that the BATF was going to clamp down on this use of a trust because of what they feel is avoidence and abuse. I have a trust but all my Cl 3 items are registered to me individually. Jim Edited August 23, 2011 by james m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 He had a C&R in the name of his trust. Legal at ATF ruled that the trust could not have a C&R. My C&R is in the name of an LLC and that is fine. Go figure. Brian bmarvin, are you saying that the C&R issued was in the name of the trust and not the individual, or the other way around? I am a C&R holder who is thinking of forming a trust, is there then no way my trust can receive a direct transfer of a C&R firearm because an FFL cannot be issued to a trust? Mike Hammer Mike, One of my C&R FFL's was in my trusts name with one BAR approved and transferred on it. I'll post again after Fridays meeting with them. It may be as simple as transferring it to my personal C&R. -Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lone Ranger Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Dang - an erroneously issued FFL... who could have seen that coming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21 smoker Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 This idea that individuals are somehow trying to avoid the CLEO signoff and finger printing is a bunch of bullshit! The CLEOs have banded together to deny our constitutional right to own firearms,period. This problem is so rampant that even the ATF agency has seen the light and has taken steps to eliminate the signoff. This situation has created a mountain of useless paperwork at a time when reduction in staff and funding is forced upon the agency.As far as finger printing,none of my customers have voiced that objection.This whole scene is bureaurocricy at its`finest.Maybe after the next election some of these foulups will be corrected...then again maybe not.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 This idea that individuals are somehow trying to avoid the CLEO signoff and finger printing is a bunch of bullshit! Avoiding the signoff tends to be the most common reason given for people wanting a trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lone Ranger Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 (edited) The bit about avoiding the CLEO is correct, however, the part about ATF trying to stop anyone from using a trust is something likely started by an internet expert. There is nothing "wrong" with using a legal entity (which also includes corporations and LLCs). It is regulations written and administered by ATF that created the CLEO signature and allowed an end-around. Eventually, you should see it go away, but it will be some time. Last I knew a draft had been sent to DOJ for review... maybe 3-5 years. Edited August 24, 2011 by The Lone Ranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted August 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 This idea that individuals are somehow trying to avoid the CLEO signoff and finger printing is a bunch of bullshit! Avoiding the signoff tends to be the most common reason given for people wanting a trust. RT, In my case I had zero problems with the finger printing experience or cost. My problem is with the utter incompetence and lack of effort shown by the the Maryland welfare workforce doing the CLEO signoff. It must be nice to stroll into a PD and walk out with the signoff. My last one took 3 months with no way to check it's progress or status, it's simply sickening. I guess this is just a glimpse of what's coming our way with BamaCare. -Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nirvana Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 My business partner has his C&R revoked from his trust. Legal picked it up on a transfer. They let that one get approved and then he had to surrender it. No other issues beyond that. This was after a half dozen form fours were approved. Brian Wait wait... He had to surrender the C&R weapon? (MG?) Or he had to surrender the 03 license? I hoping its the second.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 My business partner has his C&R revoked from his trust. Legal picked it up on a transfer. They let that one get approved and then he had to surrender it. No other issues beyond that. This was after a half dozen form fours were approved. Brian Wait wait... He had to surrender the C&R weapon? (MG?) Or he had to surrender the 03 license? I hoping its the second.... The ATF visit was hoe hum, nothing unexpected took place. The agent stated that the ATF was doing a nation wide search and license surrender of unincorporated C&R licenses. So if you have one, expect a knock on your door. They are asking the license holder to voluntarily, I didn't ask what happen if I elected to not to, surrender the C&R Trust license, the guns acquired with the license are not in question and legal since Trusts are able to have ownership of the firearms. They also did a A/B collectors log book check and also checked to see that the NFA firearms registered to you were in your possession, as in checked the serial numbers. If you will be involved in this in the future, get the ATF receipt that they have your surrendered license and the agents business cards. All in all, a cordial meeting, -Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwiifirearms Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Glad to hear it went well. On a related note, if you turn in your C&R you don't need to turn over your records(unlike other types of ffl's that are required to turn them over). When my father surrendered his C&R they asked him to turn over his records. He had to show them the the part of the law that says a C&R FFL is not required to do so. -wwiifirearms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james m Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 This idea that individuals are somehow trying to avoid the CLEO signoff and finger printing is a bunch of bullshit! Avoiding the signoff tends to be the most common reason given for people wanting a trust. This is the same reason I've heard as well although it's not a problem here. Signoff turnaround is usually around two weeks. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 darrylta, I'm afraid that I do not fully understand exactly what the ATF is doing here. You say the guns acquired with the license are not in question and legal to have, yet they asked that you voluntairily surrender the C&R license to them, is this a license issued to the trust or a personal C&R license and why would you voluntarily do this? What exactly are they claiming by the term "Unincorporated C&R License, did they outright say that a trust cannot hold such a license and receive a transfer of a C&R weapon? Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lone Ranger Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 A trust is not eligible for an FFL. When it was issued, it was an error on the part of ATF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21 smoker Posted September 9, 2011 Report Share Posted September 9, 2011 I think you guys missed my intent,...I know people avoid the CLEO signoff pocedure...what I was trying to convey was the whole illegal process of the actual signoff or lack thereof.The unconstitutional denial causes more paperwork,less commerse,etc.Finger printing is a simple process which the local PDs seem more than happy to perform.The signoff was the cause of my rant... <_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted September 9, 2011 Report Share Posted September 9, 2011 what I was trying to convey was the whole illegal process of the actual signoff or lack thereof.The unconstitutional denial causes more paperwork,less commerse,etc. Hire a lawyer and see if it really is illegal or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetryl Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Happened to my sister too, she worked in a gun shop - ordered 5 Uzi Baby Eagles at the same time' she got a knock on the door by two ATF agents, wanted to know the reason she bought 5 of them? She told them collecting and investment. She showed them she still had them and had not been sold to anyone. They said ok and left. Tetryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Just in case you didn't notice, the thread you replied to was from 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnfreeman Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 It was (and is) an interesting thread. "Why did you buy 5" " Because I didn't have enough money for ten" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now