Thompson Performance In Winter Conditions

[Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner]

A buddy of mine is planning on attending a shoot with his M1A1 in January in Northern Wisconsin. Needless to say the weather may be reminiscent of the Aredennes about that time of year. He was wondering about the Tommy's performance or any lubirication suggestions. I don't recall a discussion about Thomopson in winter conditions. Any insight on this? How did they really fare in Belgium and elsewhere?

[Gunner1928]

I find that they run fine with Mobil One Synthetic 5W-20. JMHO

 

Bob

[thirtyround]

Roland, There is an enormous amount of internet info on Thompson use by the Chinese and to a lesser extent by North Korean forces against US Marine and Army forces at the Chosin Reservoir and the subsequent fighting all the way back to the port city of Hungnam. The weather at that time had to be the harshest cold weather conditions imaginable. It is stateted that entire Chinese regiments were armed Lend Lease Thompsons. It was widely recorded many US weapons would not function reliably if at all in these conditions, but apparently the Thompson raised HELL. Many herioc actions have been recorded by US Marines and US Army personnel using captured enemy Thompsons to great effect. Semper Fi

[reconbob]

I have a house up in the mountains in NE Pennsylvania where it rountinely

gets below zero in the winter. One time I had a M1928A1 Thompson which I had

left overnight in my car during a night where the temperature got down to 15 deg

below zero. The next day when I went to shoot the gun and retrieved it from my

car the action was completely frozen shut. You could not retract the bolt at all.

No doubt this was due to it being oiled with too heavy an oil that gummed or froze

at the very low temp. I was very surprised thinking that the idea of a gun freezing

was legend and not fact. Perhaps also the H-lock shrank and seized the action.

Now there are all sorts of modern synthetic lubricants that are AOK at very low

temps. And of course an M1 does not have the bronze lock of the M1928. I would

lightly oil the gun with a light oil known to be ok at the low temp and it should be fine.

 

Bob

[jim c 351]

The secret to shooting in really cold weather is to remove all traces of oil from the firing mechanism. This applies to a M1903 as much as a Thompson. I think I remember reading in an Army manual that the M1/M1A1 do not require lubrication to work.

So,- in really cold condition remove all oil from the bolt and bolt cavity and if a M1 TSMG , remove oil from fireing pin and spring and pin cavity.

Since the 28A1 requires lubing, it is not as good of a combat weapon as the M1.

Jim C

[thomas.hondo]

I spent 3 years in Alaska as a light infantrymen training throughout winter and guns would freeze - but Its not the gun's oil, it's condensation on the weapon. In winter - All our M4's, SAW's and 240's all had a light coat of oil and ran fine even at twenty below. The following had to happen though: In the field, Wpns had to always stay outside of GP mediums /squad tents or a heated vehicle. If small arms were brought inside a semi-warm environment condensation would almost immediately form on the inside/outside of the weopon. After a few minutes a cold gun in a warm tent would be literally dripping water. A gun in that condition would be frozen within minutes after returning outside.

For N. Wisconsin I would lube normally - just keep it on the firing line until the shooting is done.

[jim c 351]

I completely agree with Thomas' post. As soon as I pushed the post button I realized I should have mentioned the condensation factor. If guns are taken from a freezing environment to a warm car or building the metal will sweat as if in a rain storm. Best to leave the guns outside or place in the trunk of car. If guns must be brought inside for security reason, then it helps to place the gun in a case before entering building and not remove the gun from case until room temperature is reached.

In the case of reconbob , he did everything right. He left the gun in his car overnight to prevent condensation and still had a problem. This bring us back to remove all oil.

As a side note,- MOH recipient 1st Sgt Funk, who is listed in the Hall Of Valor , on the site, was experiencing problems with his Thompson on the day he did of his MOH action. Thankfully , at the moment of truth, Sgt Funks Tommy worked perfectly.

Jim C

[Balder]

Gentlemen,

 

I live in a pretty cold country and I do take my guns to the range during winter. I agree with Thomas - keep the mechanism as dry as possible. The lube pads in an old 1921/1928 Thompson may contain oil of various viscosity and also water - this could be the reason why Bob's M1928A1 froze solid as described in his post above. And do not expose the gun to sudden changes of temperature - keep it cold. On a side note, the STEN-gun manual specifically states that it should not be oiled at all, regardless of temperature.

 

With old guns in extreme cold, the metal is more of a problem in my experience. Over the years metal may turn brittle, especially guns made at high speed at wartime. I've had an M1 carbine slide snap right off in -20C, as well as the right locking lug on the bolt another time in extreme cold. Mass produced in 1944 when raw materials were scarce and metallurgy still had some way to go. And most of these guns were not meant to last 50+ years anyway.

 

Balder (writing this after having shoveled two feet of snow off my driveway)

Edited December 13, 2012 by Balder

[thomas.hondo]

I completely agree with Thomas' post. As soon as I pushed the post button I realized I should have mentioned the condensation factor. If guns are taken from a freezing environment to a warm car or building the metal will sweat as if in a rain storm. Best to leave the guns outside or place in the trunk of car. If guns must be brought inside for security reason, then it helps to place the gun in a case before entering building and not remove the gun from case until room temperature is reached.

In the case of reconbob , he did everything right. He left the gun in his car overnight to prevent condensation and still had a problem. This bring us back to remove all oil.

As a side note,- MOH recipient 1st Sgt Funk, who is listed in the Hall Of Valor , on the site, was experiencing problems with his Thompson on the day he did of his MOH action. Thankfully , at the moment of truth, Sgt Funks Tommy worked perfectly.

Jim C

His Tommy ran great during Market Garden also:

" Standing just five and a half feet tall, Lenny Funk wasn't exactly the most physically imposing warrior to ever live, but his hardcore tenacity in combat and amazing ability to coordinate his associates to kill lots of people without dying themselves eventually earned him the respectable nickname "Napoleon." He didn't disappoint his namesake – after parachuting into Holland in the early stages of Operation Market Garden, he led a successful small three-man patrol that charged into the face of three fully-crewed 20mm anti-aircraft guns that were firing on US gliders.

 

Charging in, with his Tommy gun blazing, Funk and his small team destroyed three enemy positions and wiped out twenty German soldiers without losing a man. They cleared the landing zone for Allied gliders and paratroopers, and then proceeded to secure the area while the rest of the invasion force regrouped and organized. Even though Market Garden ended up being a failed mission, Funk's impressive actions earned him the Distinguished Service Cross, the second-highest award for bravery offered by the Army."