Soviet PPSH Manufacturers Markings Chart

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Very good information and pictures! I have never seen a barrel out of the gun before and also couldn’t figure out how the barrel was held at the front. That added piece must have been a pain to put in and weld or braze in place. Thanks for sharing 

[Rekraps]

11 hours ago, Roland the Thompsongunner said:

Very good information and pictures! I have never seen a barrel out of the gun before and also couldn’t figure out how the barrel was held at the front. That added piece must have been a pain to put in and weld or braze in place. Thanks for sharing 

Last weekend I removed the barrel from my PPSH for the first time, and most likely the first time since it was manufactured in 1944. Very tight. I applied penetrating oil and let it sit for about an hour. Then, and you guys are going to hate me, I use a threaded bolt just slightly narrower than the bore, inserted in through the shroud end, applied an oversized nut and left about 1/4 inch of the bolt protruding through the nut. I then inserted the bolt into the barrel and used a heavy hammer to tap (with force) on the bolt and after just a few taps, the barrel inched out. Once cleaned up, the barrel reinserts easily. 

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

I made a tool to knock my barrel loose. I took a screw driver and cut the end flat. Then I got a piece of soft plastic rod and cut a piece and drilled a hole to fit the screw driver shaft. Now I just slide the piece of plastic in the side of the shroud on the muzzle of the barrel and insert the screw driver shaft through the end of the shroud and slide the two together. Usually a good bump with the palm of my hand pops it loose. Just remember you need to catch your barrel as it pops loose

[RoscoeTurner]

14 hours ago, HeinrichM said:

"D" were marked with 100% certainty models converted to 9x19. Whether they were actually called MP 717r or MP 41r or MP 717r converted to 9x19 is, I admit, somewhat confusing and there is a lot of confusion around it. Anyway, I was directly involved in the discovery of a pit full of buried weapons and among others there were 20 pieces of PPsh loaded with "D" and all without exception were the 9x19 version and all had an absolutely identical conversion method even though they contained all production versions of PPsh and years from 41 to 44. On the side thread, I posted some photos of both one of those found relics, as well as a "D" 9x19 model in good condition, which fought in the war and did not undergo any overhaul. I think it is a very solid and unique reference sample from which something can be determined. I am very interested in this topic and would like to finally shed a little more light on this issue. There is generally not much material to study "D" 9x19 conversions anywhere

 

I suspect the ones you have found with the D were originally marked for 717s in 7.62 and later converted to 9mm as the German army was forced back.

[Rekraps]

3 hours ago, Roland the Thompsongunner said:

I made a tool to knock my barrel loose. I took a screw driver and cut the end flat. Then I got a piece of soft plastic rod and cut a piece and drilled a hole to fit the screw driver shaft. Now I just slide the piece of plastic in the side of the shroud on the muzzle of the barrel and insert the screw driver shaft through the end of the shroud and slide the two together. Usually a good bump with the palm of my hand pops it loose. Just remember you need to catch your barrel as it pops loose

I just knew you'd have a more friendly way to do the job. Good thing is that once they've been taken out, they are easy to remove again.

[HeinrichM]

9 hours ago, RoscoeTurner said:

I suspect the ones you have found with the D were originally marked for 717s in 7.62 and later converted to 9mm as the German army was forced back.

Yes, that is one option. Personally, however, I am more and more inclined to the hypothesis that the Germans only knew the MP 717r type and only those that were converted to 9x19 were marked "D", the document also corresponds to this. So maybe the whole MP 41r phenomenon is nonsense?

The translation of that document makes a certain sense...

Alle fur den verschuss deutscher munition umgebauten beute -M.P und M.G. sind 
 kusserlich wie nachstehend nufgefuhrt gekennzeichnet.....oberer teil des mantels unter der fabrik-numer.....Die bezeichungen sind von den werkstatten zweckmassig mit buchstabenstempel von etwa 10mm hohe einzuschlagen. Kennzeichnungen weiterer umgebauter beute-waffen werden zeitgerecht bekanntgegeben

.....All loot converted to shooting German ammo -M.P and M.G. they are
 stamped as shown below.....the top of the casing below the serial number.....the marking must be stamped in the workshops with a letter stamp about 10mm high. The designation of other converted looted weapons will be announced in due course

Edited June 22, 2023 by HeinrichM

[HeinrichM]

I would very much like to know what the mysterious letter "D" actually means? Why wasn't it marked with just caliber like most other German or used loot guns... I read on several Russian sites that these conversions were done in the KL Dachau workshops, could that have something to do with this? Does anyone know anything more about it?

[HeinrichM]

19 hours ago, Roland the Thompsongunner said:

Very good information and pictures! I have never seen a barrel out of the gun before and also couldn’t figure out how the barrel was held at the front. That added piece must have been a pain to put in and weld or braze in place. Thanks for sharing 

The inserted partition has a slightly square shape and copies the internal profile of the receiver quite accurately. I think they put it in through the vent, then rolled it into the correct position and welded it on. It was definitely welded on all the pieces, not soldered, and it was done with a very rough weld, how many times was the vent hole burned too......you'd hardly believe it was done under German control

[RoscoeTurner]

For what its worth - 
 

 

[RoscoeTurner]

On 6/22/2023 at 3:58 PM, HeinrichM said:

Yes, that is one option. Personally, however, I am more and more inclined to the hypothesis that the Germans only knew the MP 717r type and only those that were converted to 9x19 were marked "D", the document also corresponds to this. So maybe the whole MP 41r phenomenon is nonsense?

The translation of that document makes a certain sense...

Alle fur den verschuss deutscher munition umgebauten beute -M.P und M.G. sind 
 kusserlich wie nachstehend nufgefuhrt gekennzeichnet.....oberer teil des mantels unter der fabrik-numer.....Die bezeichungen sind von den werkstatten zweckmassig mit buchstabenstempel von etwa 10mm hohe einzuschlagen. Kennzeichnungen weiterer umgebauter beute-waffen werden zeitgerecht bekanntgegeben

.....All loot converted to shooting German ammo -M.P and M.G. they are
 stamped as shown below.....the top of the casing below the serial number.....the marking must be stamped in the workshops with a letter stamp about 10mm high. The designation of other converted looted weapons will be announced in due course

From all the sources I have found over the years the intent was for the 717 to use German 7.63×25mm Mauser when 7.62T was not available.  Both calibers work in a PPSH without modification.

[Rekraps]

Yet another gun I wish I had....

[HeinrichM]

On 6/24/2023 at 1:35 PM, RoscoeTurner said:

From all the sources I have found over the years the intent was for the 717 to use German 7.63×25mm Mauser when 7.62T was not available.  Both calibers work in a PPSH without modification.

Yes, it happens a lot. But personally, at least, I don't believe in this hypothesis. At that time, the Mauser 7.63x25mm cartridge was not particularly widespread, nor was it used by the army ammunition, and it was perhaps not even more widespread in the ranks of the armament of the German army. The translation of that document speaks quite clearly, that would explain the designation PPSh in the German army. The mystery is what exactly the letter "D" means, in the sense of why exactly "D" and not Pist.Patrone 08 or cal. 9 para , which would make more sense for a gun whose chamber can be loaded with multiple calibers and in some combinations can be dangerous to the user

[HeinrichM]

On 6/24/2023 at 1:00 AM, RoscoeTurner said:

For what its worth - 
 

 

Ian has a real original barrel there and a real original adapter for the MP 40 mags. This is the only type of adapter I would trust. I have seen it several times in the finds of fellow searchers, and it was always only this particular type of adapter, never the tin one. However, unfortunately Ian does not have the corresponding MP 717r in the video, he only has some mixture, made up of parts of standard PPsh... but that's what he says at the end of the video. I think there will be very few surviving original MP 717r

[RoscoeTurner]

1 hour ago, HeinrichM said:

Yes, it happens a lot. But personally, at least, I don't believe in this hypothesis. At that time, the Mauser 7.63x25mm cartridge was not particularly widespread, nor was it used by the army ammunition, and it was perhaps not even more widespread in the ranks of the armament of the German army. The translation of that document speaks quite clearly, that would explain the designation PPSh in the German army. The mystery is what exactly the letter "D" means, in the sense of why exactly "D" and not Pist.Patrone 08 or cal. 9 para , which would make more sense for a gun whose chamber can be loaded with multiple calibers and in some combinations can be dangerous to the user

Evidently you have a monopoly on all the correct answers.

[StrangeRanger]

wild guess: D = Deutchland or a derivative thereof, indicating that this was now German property?

[Rekraps]

40 minutes ago, RoscoeTurner said:

Evidently you have a monopoly on all the correct answers.

Has anyone considered that "D" could stand for Deutschland? Or even wilder yet, perhaps there was just a single source for the conversions, and that "waffen stamp" so to speak was "D". 

[HeinrichM]

According to the document, other looted Soviet weapons, such as the DP 26, were marked with different letters. Here is a real example of such a weapon....everything is still in accordance with the submitted German document - no deviation yet. The said document can be trusted. I do not have a monopoly on correct answers, but I am a supporter of real and well-founded arguments

https://www.vhu.cz/exhibit/sovetsky-lehky-kulomet-dp-nemecka-korist/

[HeinrichM]

I found this: 

https://www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de/item/DWLAJK7MOG5ISOTBHTIQHYGZHSGWTR4U

If you translate it, it says that the "D" should have something to do with the weapons test group, there are a lot of regulations and documents in the Bundesarchiv even directly on the use of looted Russian weapons, but I haven't figured out how to download them or display...

[Rekraps]

On 6/27/2023 at 3:32 PM, HeinrichM said:

I found this: 

https://www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de/item/DWLAJK7MOG5ISOTBHTIQHYGZHSGWTR4U

If you translate it, it says that the "D" should have something to do with the weapons test group, there are a lot of regulations and documents in the Bundesarchiv even directly on the use of looted Russian weapons, but I haven't figured out how to download them or display...

Seems to make sense to me. I have a M79 thumper with odd receiver and barrel markings that trace back to similar type of stamps. Thanks for the input.

[HeinrichM]

A colleague came across this interestingly marked piece during further cleaning of PPsh from a mass find. Instead of the usual "D" marking there is a D.M marking and the conversion to 9mm para is quite different from the other pieces. The barrel is completely specific and there is no modified barrel from the MP 40 used here. Nor is the upper modified like in classic conversions. The barrel has the same profile as the original 762x25 barrel. In the front part of the barrel, the muzzle is drilled to a depth of about 20mm and the chamber of the barrel is also strange, it looks like it is made of two parts and the extension is somehow connected to the rest of the barrel. It is also interesting that the entire interior of the barrel, including the bore of the muzzle and the chamber, is hard chrome plated. There is no marking on the barrel. Outside the marking D.M. in a completely unusual place, there are only the original Soviet markings. This is a piece made in ZiS in 1943 and the breech is not numbered with the weapon, as is the case with almost all pieces from the find

[Rekraps]

I just love this stuff. Wow. No end to the variations and amazing things that were done during WW2!