Droppin' mags and drum hilarity ensues as well... More Kahr Thomps

[JTravis]

Well, I just today got a chance to take my new-in-the-case, previously-owned-but-never-fired Kahr Thompson detachable stock 1927A1 out to the range today, to see what I had before sending in my Form 1 to SBR it. I had the factory 30-round stick loaded with Federal JHP rounds and the L drum (apparently "L" is for LESS-than-functional?) loaded with Perfecta 230gr ball ammo. All factory rounds; no reloads. So I load up the stick mag, and bang, bang, bang, bang. No problems at all. I am thinking "Wow; it looks like Kahr got one to run as good as it looks!" So then, I decided to try the drum- and that is when the "hilarity ensued".

 

Fight to get it to slide into the slots. Then the catch doesn't want to go in the slot all the way. So I wiggle it until it finally seats pull the bolt back off the trip, and... jam. Crap. Alright, I pull it back and get it to finally feed a round. Bang. Jam again. Repeat. This time, the first bullet tries to halfway feed and the second one works partly behind it. Maybe it just needs to break in? So I get that cleared and all I get is the bullets either hanging slightly nose-down on the edge of the front lip of the drum cover, or trying to not feed up through the magazine lips. Then, to finally make its point, the next round actually twists the nose over sideways rather than face the horror of feeding up and forward into the chamber. At that point, I say "Fine. Pull the damn drum and go back to the stick mag. They have a reputation for being problematic anyway, but the stick did well." So in goes the stick, and guess what?

 

Wait for it...

 

Bang/ Bang/ click.

 

Click? I look down and see the magazine sitting in the gravel below me by my feet. Huh? I thought I had it locked in all the way? But OK...THIS time, I make SURE it is up in there and the catch is holding it by pulling down on the mag first. Secure (as a 45-year-old Hollywood actress). Bang. Bang. Drop.

 

And so it went, through the rest of the mag. The ONLY way I got through it was to literally hold DOWN on the mag release with pressure while shooting. Otherwise, like Monty Python's Holy Hand Grenade, the number shall be THREE. Not two, nor four, but Three shall be the number of thy fall.

 

Look; I really do WANT to love this rifle. I've owned three semi-auto Thompsons before, and only the West Hurley that I SBR'd gave me anywhere near this kind of fits right out of the gate. I plan on calling Kahr in the morning (because their customer service will- by reputation- probably get my blood pressure going cheaper than a cup of coffee) but since I am not the original owner AND since I believe the rifle is over a year old anyway, I am not expecting too much in the way of help there. I *would* love to be pleasantly surprised, however, and they *could* gain a new customer for life... or perhaps not. We'll see in the morning.

 

In the meantime, does anyone have any suggestions to get this poor wee beastie to run again, short of killing a chicken and dancing naked backwards around a campfire in some sort of obscure VooDoo ritual? At this point, I'm open to suggestions...

[MisterB]

I'm guessing it's something to do with the mag catch hole on the mags more than anything. Maybe too much was taken off the hole of the mag so it works with the Kahr, maybe not enough. Kahr will probably just tell you the mag catch on the rifle sounds like it is bad, and to send them the gun (as though that's a cheap and easy solution...What a hassle dealing with shipping and everything else). It'll probably be a complete waste of time. Might need to go back to the range, but take a file to work on the mag in between shots.

[JTravis]

I'm guessing it's something to do with the mag catch hole on the mags more than anything. Maybe too much was taken off the hole of the mag so it works with the Kahr, maybe not enough. Kahr will probably just tell you the mag catch on the rifle sounds like it is bad, and to send them the gun (as though that's a cheap and easy solution...What a hassle dealing with shipping and everything else). It'll probably be a complete waste of time. Might need to go back to the range, but take a file to work on the mag in between shots.

I haven't pulled it apart to look at it yet, but I was curious if the spring for the mag catch also affects the trip? Because if so, perhaps that spring is bad/weak and letting the trip "pop up" and engage the bolt between shots AND letting the mag release "pop back" at the same time, eventually letting go of the magazine and causing it to fall out? It may be two separate issues completely, but I am trying to think through what might be the potential causes of the problems.

Thank you for your suggestion and help. I will give that a try too.

One other question; does anyone know how far the mag catch nub is supposed to protrude into the channel on a properly working mag catch? This one seems awfully shallow in how far it sticks out past the frame. I wonder IF the mag catch may have some casting flash hiding behind the trigger guard part of the frame that is not letting it sit flat enough to get a good protrusion into the mag?

Edited August 23, 2016 by JTravis

[james m]

You are dealing with one of the truly PITA areas of the Thompson. I had a range gun that would fire a few rounds and then misfire. I discovered that by holding the mag firmly in place the problem lessened in full auto and abated in semi. We removed the magazine catch and welded a bit of metal on the top. This apparently tightened it up to he point that it functioned reliably.

Jim

Edited August 23, 2016 by james m

[StooperZero]

mine came with one of those new kahr drums , absolute nightmare to install/remove it. ran fine once you figured out the number of 'clicks' needed.

 

took some very fine filing on the drum itself for proper fitting and I learned the hard way of not using SWC's in it too.

 

 

 

 

as for the mag falling out, is it a factory auto ord semi mag???

 

the hole might not be milled deep enough all the way, sure it will 'lock' in but the catch is just resting. I have one mag out of all of them i converted that does this. It may possibly wind up being chopped up to make another 50rd stick.

 

 

 

 

IMHO, take the whole damn thing apart and inspect for anything messed up IE: burrs, heavy crap park job on parts and polish it all up.

[Merry Ploughboy]

mine came with one of those new kahr drums ... ran fine once you figured out the number of 'clicks' needed.

 

I gave up on trying to figure out what was a real "click" and what was not. Instead, based on what I'd read from others who've had the same problem, I count turns of the winding key. For the fully loaded L drum, I use 2 1/2 turns of the key or 1/2 turn per every ten rounds. (two sectors).

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

[JTravis]

OK; I tried filing the hole up a little to get it to seat in the mag release. Off to the range, and bang-bang-click, again. Also, every time when the mag drops, the trip pops up and locks the bolt back every time. I didn't think it was supposed to do that until the mag was empty and the follower pressed it up? I called Kahr customer lack-of-service and found them to be teats on the proverbial boar hog, as everyone here has described them. (This WILL certainly be the LAST Kahr product I purchase) The ONLY bit of useful information was that the rifle was made in January 2013 (and unfired until yesterday).

 

I will try the 2-1/2 full turns of the key suggestion on the drum next time I attempt it, but until I can get the rest of the rifle itself to work I am going to try and "stick" with the 30-round magazine for now. The 30-round magazine is the factory one that came in the box with it. I will look closer but I don't recall seeing any markings on it, so I would presume it is a Kahr-made semi-auto version. I can add some photos if it would help make sure. Matter of fact, I will get some photos of it once I tear it down again and show what it looks like, in case there is something I am missing.

 

Thanks again for all the help, guys. I *do* appreciate it. I really, really WANT to get this gun running well enough to justify filing the Form 1 and SBRing it.

[StooperZero]

Also, every time when the mag drops, the trip pops up and locks the bolt back every time.

 

 

 

 

on the BHO , apply finger pressure. is it floppy or have a good bit of downward force?

 

 

my BHO failed my first time out , i replaced it's spring with a trimmed AK disconnector spring.

[JTravis]

 

Also, every time when the mag drops, the trip pops up and locks the bolt back every time.

 

 

 

 

on the BHO , apply finger pressure. is it floppy or have a good bit of downward force?

 

 

my BHO failed my first time out , i replaced it's spring with a trimmed AK disconnector spring.

It was sometimes OK, mostly weak and floppy.

 

OK, I took the lower apart (glad I remembered how) and it was pretty gunked up in there. Also, the was some casting flash in a couple of spots that I took off. But the main thing that stood out to me was how little of the mag catch "nub" actually is protuding through. I took some pictures on my phone (sorry about the crappy quality) and I'll let you guys take a look and tell me if this looks "normal" for these or not?

 

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_164315_resized_zpsiqw1zhtw.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_164035_resized_zpsdywqochk.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_163913_resized_zpsgbl9x4yu.jpg

 

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_154829_resized_zpsymjyoghu.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_154810_resized_zps6kxp9nlm.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_154646_resized_zpsesqurg2g.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_154719_resized_zpsi0z7ma1g.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_154704_resized_zpsp2pt7stw.jpg

 

Here's a few of the other parts:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_154604_resized_zpsmzp2hgkl.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_154823_resized_zps83jdfh8i.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i78/JTravis1964/Thompson/20160823_154627_resized_zpsdbqofyig.jpg

 

Are there other photos/angles on these that would help?

[StooperZero]

clean all that gunk off first.

 

 

 

 

that catch looks awfully short.

[JTravis]

clean all that gunk off first.

 

 

 

 

that catch looks awfully short.

 

Everything in it is now cleaned and dry with brake cleaner, so no more greasy goo. I did my last one of these with Frog Lube and it seemed to make it really smooth out, but I am open to other ideas. While it's all apart, I want to put something on there to cut the internal friction off the parts.

 

And yeah; I was looking at a Gunbroker auction on a USGI mag catch and it really DOES look like "somebody" (either Kahr employee OR perhaps the original owner?) shaved the hell off the end of it and then reshaped it but let the protrusion not reach through. What should I do for a replacement mag catch? Buy a USGI version and trim it to work with the semi-auto or try and get another one from Kahr (or whomever else that I can avoid giving money to Kahr by dealing with? I've only got the one stick mag from Kahr so far. I won an auction on a USGI 20-round stick mag and plan on picking up a few more of each (IF I can get the problems solved) so I suppose if I were going to convert it to use unaltered USGI mags, this would be the logical time to do so if I need to replace the mag catch anyway.

[StooperZero]

you any good at welding?

[JTravis]

you any good at welding?

Not THAT good... I wouldn't attempt to try and build it back up and reshape it.

[Merry Ploughboy]

My guess is that the mag catch was shortened by the original owner in the erroneous belief that the original length mag catch was the reason that they could not insert the drum mag into the gun.

 

Keep at it!

[JTravis]

OK; just finished Frog Lubing and getting it all back together (except I did not install the mag release yet) and between smoothing the edges on the squared parts and the Frog Lube, the pull on the bolt is noticeably reduced and the fire control group functions much smoother. Also, I noticed that the trip is now staying in place and seems to have the right amount of pressure to it again compared to my last one. I'm not 100% sure, but *MAYBE* the spring inside it had came out of its recess in the lower and was not pressing correctly against it's lever? Either way, I'll know next time I go to shoot it if that fixed it or not.

 

But now; the mag catch follies... Without being in a position to weld it myself, any suggestions as to how to repair the problem AND at the same time, perhaps set it up to run unaltered USGI mags? Does anyone offer that service here if I send them the mag catch I have, or would they need to start with a new one/USGI one?

[deerslayer]

Archives probably have pictures of how to trim a mag catch to work with gi mags. Otherwise I can do it. Forget the kahr drum...you might get it to work.. But probably not. Buy a GI drum or one the tiwanese drums.

Bolt group needs reburring.

[james m]

As I said way early in this thread we cured one of ours at the range by doing a little and very basic welding on the catch and then some re-shaping. This isn't rocket science and anyone who has basic welding skills can do that part. It will probably take some cutting and test fitting with a file to get it right. When you're done the snapped in mag. shouldn't have much if any up and down play.

Jim

[JTravis]

OK; thought it was past time I posted some sort of a follow-up on this thread. After pulling the old catch out and looking it over, I finally just said "to hell with it" and just ordered a new one from Kahr Arms. It came in, I dropped it in there (after some effort trying to get the spring on it and into the lower) and so far, it catches and holds on the modified mags. Since I have about half my mags that are already modified and half that are not, I decided that it would be easier to open the holes on the original ones than to try welding up the modified ones. Either that, or I may see if anyone here has some of the opened ones already who wants to trade for the unmodified originals, mag for mag? I will try to get some photos of them and post them up later if anyone here is interested in a deal like that (AND lives where these are legal to send them to).

 

Thanks for all the help, advice and moral support with this. I still have to see if I can get the drum tweaked and working (I have gotten some of the internal drag out of it, but have not had the extra ammo to go shoot it yet) and then it will be a matter of filing the Form 1 and waiting to be able to swap to a 10-1/2" barrel and may a ring sight instead of the fake Cutts (or maybe get a real one?). Has anyone here used one of the Green Mountain Thompson barrels and if so, how did it go? I have their products on a number of other rifles and have been really happy, but I understand the Thompson has a different threading and may need something else. Mine was built around January 2013 according to Kahr, if that makes any difference. Since I cannot buy the barrel until after the tax stamp is approved and returned, I have some time to decide on what to use so I am open to suggestions.

Edited October 20, 2016 by JTravis

[Joe H]

Jt,

 

The Green Mountain barrels are made to the original military spec. As far as I can tell the only difference is that they are button rifled rather than the cut rifling on the originals.

 

I have one on a M1 semi that I built using a Philly Ord receiver. Fit & runs perfect. Pic attached.

 

I don't know whether Kahr has changed the barrel threading or any problems are related to the usual sloppy Kahr tolerances. See the link below.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17371

 

Maybe some members who have recently SBR'd their Kahr can chime in.

 

Joe

[MisterB]

OK; thought it was past time I posted some sort of a follow-up on this thread. After pulling the old catch out and looking it over, I finally just said "to hell with it" and just ordered a new one from Kahr Arms. It came in, I dropped it in there (after some effort trying to get the spring on it and into the lower) and so far, it catches and holds on the modified mags. Since I have about half my mags that are already modified and half that are not, I decided that it would be easier to open the holes on the original ones than to try welding up the modified ones. Either that, or I may see if anyone here has some of the opened ones already who wants to trade for the unmodified originals, mag for mag? I will try to get some photos of them and post them up later if anyone here is interested in a deal like that (AND lives where these are legal to send them to).

 

Thanks for all the help, advice and moral support with this. I still have to see if I can get the drum tweaked and working (I have gotten some of the internal drag out of it, but have not had the extra ammo to go shoot it yet) and then it will be a matter of filing the Form 1 and waiting to be able to swap to a 10-1/2" barrel and may a ring sight instead of the fake Cutts (or maybe get a real one?). Has anyone here used one of the Green Mountain Thompson barrels and if so, how did it go? I have their products on a number of other rifles and have been really happy, but I understand the Thompson has a different threading and may need something else. Mine was built around January 2013 according to Kahr, if that makes any difference. Since I cannot buy the barrel until after the tax stamp is approved and returned, I have some time to decide on what to use so I am open to suggestions.

Just sent you a pm. I will trade you

[MadDogDan]

 

mine came with one of those new kahr drums ... ran fine once you figured out the number of 'clicks' needed.

 

I gave up on trying to figure out what was a real "click" and what was not. Instead, based on what I'd read from others who've had the same problem, I count turns of the winding key. For the fully loaded L drum, I use 2 1/2 turns of the key or 1/2 turn per every ten rounds. (two sectors).

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

This is absolutely correct. Kahr should stop printing the number of "clicks" on the back of the drum because in reality there are two different, distinct clicks that the drums make. There is a click you hear as you start to turn the key and a heavy "thunk" you hear at the 3, 6, 9, & 12 o'clock positions. The heavy thunk you hear is the click they are talking about. Ploughboy has it right. I give the key 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 turns and my drum works 100%. I did have a new drum years ago that would make the rounds nose dive and hang up on the lip of the drum as described in the original post. I just put a small grind stone in my dremmel and lowered that portion of the drum a little. It then worked 100% as well but I sold it to someone who just had to have it. The new Kahr drum I am using now has worked 100% right out of the wrapper.

 

[Garlicrazy]

I don't have the dropping mag problem. I have the bolt won't stay back problems. only on kahr mags my gi mags run great except for one xx rounder . I have two kahr 1927a1 neither one shoots the kahr mags both shoot drums great and gi mags.but the one kahr shoots both xx rounders fine . Merry ploughboy is 100 %correct on the drums

[StooperZero]

compare how low your kahr magazines are sitting when locked in. or measure the top of the hole from the top of the spine.

 

 

 

 

 

I have a few junk 30's i converted for my gun and used the wrong end mill on one that made the hole just over 1/16 taller , the mag works but it doesnt operate the BHO when empty.