Robert Henley Posted July 16, 2019 Report Share Posted July 16, 2019 (edited) I inherited what appears to be a Winchester Model 1897, SN 693xxx, which is in the range for a military trench gun according to the 39th Blue Book (page 2101). It has a "US" stamp near the ejection port. Does anyone have a picture of a Model 1897 military trench gun I compare it to? I'll take a picture of mine when I get a chance and post it for comparison. Thanks, Robert Edited July 16, 2019 by Robert Henley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy Posted July 16, 2019 Report Share Posted July 16, 2019 Robert, if you shoot me a text message or email I can send you pictures. Ill pm you my contact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted July 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2019 Some pictures. It does have the "E" prefix in the SN. It looks like someone attached a Weaver choke to it and it looks like something else was previously attached (picture #4 a good view of the attachment points on the barrel). Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridgeport28A1 Posted July 17, 2019 Report Share Posted July 17, 2019 There are pictures of Winchester Military shotguns in the pinned reference post at the top of the sub-forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted July 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2019 My assumption is the attachment points in pictures #4 and #5 were where the bayonet lug and heat shield on the top were attached. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted July 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2019 There are pictures of Winchester Military shotguns in the pinned reference post at the top of the sub-forum. Yes, I did look at them. Neil sent me a lot of detailed pictures. Hopefully, the pictures I attached above will be helpful in positively identifying my gun. Thank-you, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted July 17, 2019 Report Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) My assumption is the attachment points in pictures #4 and #5 were where the bayonet lug and heat shield on the top were attached. Robert Correct, a sure sign that a trench gun bayonet mount was originally installed on the barrel, and that the gun was not originally made as a riot gun. It's a shame in this case that the barrel was modified to take the brake/compensator. These guns were not seen as being particularly valuable immediately after their military service, and modifications were common. Unmodified barrels and bayonet mounts are unfortunately impossible to find. There are some nice repro mounts available out there. Never could decide which I like better, the Model 1897, or the Model 12! Edited July 17, 2019 by TSMGguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy Posted July 17, 2019 Report Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) Robert, I think it was at one point a Trench Gun but it was converted sometime in its life to a sporter. It certainly looks reblued which I think they probably buffed off the flaming bomb. The stock set is incorrect (both the butt stock and the fore arm), as is the butt plate. Is that compensator threaded or soldered on? Is the hole in the end of the barrel for the front sight? Whats the length of the barrel? Im wondering if they cut it down. Unfortunately it would be a very difficult and costly restoration. Edited July 17, 2019 by Kilroy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted July 17, 2019 Report Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) Right, the butt plate would originally have been made of gutta percha, hard rubber. Edited July 17, 2019 by TSMGguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted July 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2019 Some more pictures. "US" about 1/8" high. About 22" to end of Weaver choke attachment (I can't tell if it's screwed on or how it's attached). Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted July 18, 2019 Report Share Posted July 18, 2019 Its a non takedown WW1 gun with a hand stamped U.S. The buttplate looks like a M70 part.Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtrooper Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 My assumption is the attachment points in pictures #4 and #5 were where the bayonet lug and heat shield on the top were attached. Robert Correct, a sure sign that a trench gun bayonet mount was originally installed on the barrel, and that the gun was not originally made as a riot gun. It's a shame in this case that the barrel was modified to take the brake/compensator. These guns were not seen as being particularly valuable immediately after their military service, and modifications were common. Unmodified barrels and bayonet mounts are unfortunately impossible to find. There are some nice repro mounts available out there. Never could decide which I like better, the Model 1897, or the Model 12! The first time the bolt on a model 97 took a hunk out of my hand while pumping the action I became a model 12 enthusiast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted July 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 I haven't fired the 1897, but the action seems incredibly solid. I've got two Model 12's, a 12 guage and a 16 guage. I used to use the 12 guage hunting deer (with buckshot) when I was a kid. Very smooth guns. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted July 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 An article in this month's (August 2019) NRA American Rifleman magazine regarding Winchester and its wartime contributions. The article includes information on the Model 1897 trench gun as well as other Winchesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted July 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 I had someone point out to me this reproduction: http://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/winreparts.html The above noted magazine article in post directly above mentioned the trench gun barrel was 20.5" as I recall. From the above picture of muzzle end with tape measure, that looks about right as far as barrel length is concerned. Any thoughts on how this reproduction would work? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 Robert, you parbably want to do considerable Googleing on your project, studying the results that come up. IIRC, commercial Winchester M1897s and M12s had different barrel tapers than the trench guns did. It could be the East Taylor's repro bayo mounts are made for shortened commercial barrels rather than original trench barrels. I'd ask them the quesiton about what fits what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 If it is made " right " it will not work at all . This appears to be made so you could cut down a sporter barrel and install it to make a phony trench gun . Long sporter barrels are tappered from breech to muzzel . Trench barrels are not tappered ( or at least not near as much ) so you are looking at two problems . First , the ID would be too small . You might be able to spread it to go on . Second , after spreaded to fit on , how would the screws line up ? The may not start into the holes on the other side and / or may not clear the barrel . Originals have screw thread markings in the grooves , the fitting is so close . The screws must fit all the way down in the grooves in order to get enough " bite " to not only hold the adaptor on , but the adaptor and the bayonet .You'd have to contact them about a fitting / working grantee .Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 Ahhh , more proof great minds think alike .I'm a slow typer .Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted July 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 OK, thanks for the tips guys. I'll research more before taking any action. I note that the instructions on the East Taylor website seem to indicate the reproduction is for the original gun. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmagee1917 Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 Ummmm ..... I strongly disagree . This is coppied from the home page on their site .INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR BAYONET ATTACHMENTNOTE: THESE INSTRUCTIONS ARE FOR NON ORIGINAL TRENCH GUNSChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 Well I thought Id a bit more to the discussion. Is there a significant difference in a trench gun external barrel profile compared to the same period of sporting gun external barrel profile? Of course internal is different since the choke is machined at trench length vs a cut down sporting barrel. Not really saying its a drop on heatshield since its not original Winchester production, however I believe their quality is better than Sarco/IMA junk Ive seen. Of course you could wait to find a loose original and pay $$$$ Ive not fitted my Ithaca one yet as I need to iron out a barrel bulge first. I may try to compare external profiles on the Ithaca as I have a near same year sporting gun as well. My original input:http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/topic/14475-wtb-winchester-model-1897-handguard-and-bayonet-assembly/ The rest of the instructions:**** Note: if you do not have an original trench gun you will need to make modifications to your gun. *** Read the following instructions before purchasing. **** INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR BAYONET ATTACHMENTNOTE: THESE INSTRUCTIONS ARE FOR NON ORIGINAL TRENCH GUNS Cut barrel to 20-1/2 inches measuring from the end of the chamber to the end of the muzzle For Winchester 97 only, remove the clamp that holds the magazine tube and the barrel together (this clamp will no longer be used). For Winchesters only, if your magazine plug does not have a 9/32 stud on the end of it you will need to replace it with one that does in order to support your magazine tube. We sell them on our web site. Remove the 3 securing screws from the attachment and slide the bayonet attachment on the barrel until the 9/32 stud on the end of the magazine plug goes into the hole in the rear of the leg on the attachment and the rear of the leg is flush with the face of the magazine plug. This is for Winchesters only. For Stevens and Ithaca slide the attachment on the barrel until the end of bayonet lug (round stud that the bayonet ring slides over) is even with the muzzle end of the barrel. Leaves approx. ½ inch of barrel showing. Making sure that the leg of the bayonet attachment is lined up with the trigger guard (centered) scribe 3 marks in the bottom of the barrel by inserting a small rat tail file in each of the 3 screw mounting holes. Remove the attachment and file each groove just enough to let the screw clear (you do this by sliding on and removing the attachment and screwing in the screw until it clears. Do this for all 3 screws. Be careful not to make the slots too deep which could weaken the barrel. The screws should clear the barrel easily without forcing when the groove is deep enough. Trying to force the screw can strip it and or damage the threads in the attachment. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted July 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 You may be right but I was reading the following (underline added for emphasis): We manufacture all reproduction parts, both walnut and steel in house on our machinery. All parts are copied from original ones and are fitted to our original guns before shipment. We do not make parts for repro guns or guns not listed on this site. We offer gunsmith services for those who wish to send their gun in for evaluation and/or repair. We only work on guns manufactured prior to 1898 (black powder) and only on those models listed on this site. We ship within ten days of receipt of payment unless otherwise specified. **** Note: if you do not have an original trench gun you will need to make modifications to your gun. *** Read the following instructions before purchasing. **** INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR BAYONET ATTACHMENTNOTE: THESE INSTRUCTIONS ARE FOR NON ORIGINAL TRENCH GUNS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Henley Posted July 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 Thanks Ron. By the time I replied (I got a phone call in the middle of replying) I see you had already replied with the full instructions. FYI, a representative of the company did respond to my inquiry as follows: "You appear to have an orig. trench gun. In order for a bayonet att. To be installed you will have to remove the ventilated barrel extension which someone added to the barrel. There should be another groove under the extension (3 grooves 1 ½ inches apart center to center). The barrel should be 20 ½ inches in length measured from the muzzle to the breach where the rim of the shell seats" Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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