Mystery mag pouch

[Maine-iac]

Hello again all, I have a minor mystery on my hands here. The fellow I bought my Thompson from sent me an advance care package of sorts with accessories. Some of the mags were contained in... This. 

It's a bit of a mystery, he thinks it's Eastern European in origin. It has a lot of structural similarities to German SMG mag pouches, though the materials seem more USGI. It fits three thirty round magazines quite handily. 

 

Any thoughts? 

 

Edit: it occurs to me that this might not be the right page to post this on. Apologies there. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Maine-iac
Whoops!

[jim c 351]

I think it was Bob Landies who once told me, that our very own CIA, had these pouches made up for the Bay Of Pigs invasion of Cuba.

A since they were issued to Thompson gunners, you posted correctly.

Jim C

[TSMGguy]

I have one too and always wondered what it was. The side pocket dos fit an M1A1 oiler perfectly, and of course it holds three mags. There are no markings. I don't even recall where I got it. These are not often seen but always seem to be in excellent condition.

[rpbcps]

2 hours ago, jim c 351 said:

I think it was Bob Landies who once told me, that our very own CIA, had these pouches made up for the Bay Of Pigs invasion of Cuba.

A since they were issued to Thompson gunners, you posted correctly.

Jim C

I'll need to keep my eyes pealed for one of those them, I love the historic connection. 👍

[Maine-iac]

3 hours ago, jim c 351 said:

I think it was Bob Landies who once told me, that our very own CIA, had these pouches made up for the Bay Of Pigs invasion of Cuba.

A since they were issued to Thompson gunners, you posted correctly.

Jim C

Are there any extant sources or photos backing up the story? Quite interesting if true. 

[jim c 351]

Raul Castro has some photos taken at the Bay Of Pigs surrender, but sadly I have misplaced his email during the covid thing.

Jim C

[rpbcps]

1 hour ago, jim c 351 said:

Raul Castro has some photos taken at the Bay Of Pigs surrender, but sadly I have misplaced his email during the covid thing.

Jim C

🤣😂

[SP Sarge]

Check out the photos in this militaria form thread. Some black and white pics at the top, and then some color photos further down in the thread.

https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/218928-photo-of-a-sterile-mag-pouch-in-use-in-vietnam/

[APEXgunparts]

Post 31 from the other thread (shown above) .
I have that middle pouch on my show tables.
Second one I have had.
No one believes it is an issue pouch, been out for sale at many shows.
The main buyers of bags with shoulder straps are women and they don't put magazines in them!

Richard

[Ivan]

These were advertised back in early 1980's as "sterile CIA " mag pouches. A few different variations. Some would hold Grease gun mags , some would not. They all worked with 30 round M1 Carbine mags among others. Numrich used to sell them.

 

[john]

I have two of these. Bought at the creek and used mainly for the jungle walk there.

[522]

Ok, here is my thoughts on these pouches. I do not believe that they are "CIA" manufacture, but rather foreign made equipment.

     I am having trouble downloading photos my posting, so the description is all there is for now.

    But, first, the backstory...a long winded one...
 

      My first years in special forces found me as an instructor at the Special Operations Training course, at Mott Lake, in the hinterland of Ft Bragg, NC, 1979-1981.  SOT had it's beginnings with the initial stall out, in late 1976, of the Jimmy Carter's much vaunted Delta...not ready to deploy.  Lt Gen Jack V. Mackmull, cmdr of the JFK Special Warfare Center, gathered the heads of 5th and 7th SFGs, in early November of 76to find a stop gap solution. The 7th Gp cmdr said they could get a team together in a month or two. 5th group said they could be running outside of a week.
   

     Two detachments were assembled from veterans of SOG, the Phoenix/Sigma/Delta projects, and Son Tay raiders, from VN.  They trained hard and ran missions across North and South Carolina, and elsewhere, the most audacious being the men who infiltrated a nuclear power plant. They were prepared to conduct any anti-terrorist missions, but Delta was finally ready to assume the limelight by mid 77. However, Mackmull saw a vast pool of skills in the teams and their support, and was shown that setting up a course of anti-terrorist training, to prepare SF teams for the direct action missions that would become the focus of the coming decades, was a worthy enterprise.
 

     Since Delta were the only ones who could use the term "anti-terrorist" (...kinda silly, but true), "Special Operations" became the term for everyone else, back before it was cool. So SOT was born. An old NSA site out by Mott Lake was found ( the main warehouse still had three huge generators...that could power Ft Bragg!), and training facilities were set up. Down range, live fire facilities were built. Be aware, the money for set up was nothing like the funds which created the ranges Delta had...electric targets, indoor shooting with AC...so the Mott Lake guys methods of "acquisition" of material would have Tim Hutton's character "Sgt Peterson" proud.
 

        Soon the course was running. Two weeks, with full, or composite teams coming from the 5th, 7th and 10th SF Groups. To beef up the staff, one team from 7th SFG was assigned to the Lake ( The instructor teams from 5th and 7th still had to be ready to run real world missions, and trained accordingly). A team going to the course had two men assigned as snipers, who spent a lot of time at the range and in class, honing their craft. The remaining 10 did their training on the various aspects of assaulting various buildings, linear structures (buses and aircraft...eventually, actual buses and aircraft fuselages ended up down range, replacing the 2x4 and target cloth copies), and whole city blocks...all built from scratch. Live fire. There were structures which allowed 360 degree firing, and the use of grenades. This was started during the Carter Administration, which cut military funding in the post-Vietnam period with great glee. The 82nd ABN Div could hardly get blanks! I recall one guy remark that the last time he had thrown a grenade was in Vietnam. Different times. One parachute jump would occur, as well as rappelling (for access to buildings) and STABO (...extraction) training.  I still have my original STABO harness, dated 1972.

  

    The course was the hot ticket, from 1977 to 1983. We trained SF teams, Ranger Bn members, even Canadian Paratroops. One could say that we had some responsibility for the botched Ruby Ridge fiasco...we gave training to the first FBI HRU (hostage rescue unit). Civilians agents training on a DOD training site, without official authorization...went well until one broke his leg. The staff sweated bullets on that one. Stories were created and the agent was taken down to the hospital in Fayetteville in their POV!!
 

    Getting to the pouches...in the arms room there, we had CAR-15s, 1911s, M-79s, MP5s, MP5Ks, M-21 systems, and 20 M-45 Swedish K sub guns....all suppressed. We had two tractor trailers sandbagged in the center of the compound, with ammunition and grenades, by the case, for all the weapons. Time between classes found us signing out desired weapons, pulling cases from the trailers, and burning it up down range. Great times for a 21 year old! We sometimes received weapons from 18th ABN Corps or JFK Center, to evaluate. The most interesting were the Armbrust anti-tank weapons and Mini 14s. It was said that the Armbrust could be fired from inside a closed space...bunker, etc.,...eh, I would not recommend it. There  Mini 14s were

       Along with the Swedish Ks were dozens of the the pouches pictured here. I have owned CISO gear, including a 3-mag pouch with a loader pocket on the side. The things I have noticed on CISO/CIA gear is a dependence on the same hardware, at times. The ladder style buckles found on M-1928 haversacks from WWII, and the simpler 1 inch and 5/8ths inch buckles found on the M-1910 packs from WWI (...these WWI type buckles feature prominently on CISO rucksacks).  The pouch in this discussion has hardware not often found in stocks of hardware used in "deniable gear". The leather tab with the brass stud is a European style, as are the swivel clips on the ends of the carry strap. Another European influence is the tab with a D-ring, opposite the tool pouch. This indicates that these came in sets, a left and a right. The MP-44 pouches of WWII were constructed just this way...they had belt loops, and a retaining strap which kept the pouches from sliding forward when bending forward. Not a US design feature, generally.

  

     The other point in my opinion is that when asking about the pouches when at SOT, the armorer (Earle) stated that they came with the Swedish Ks. The Ks had shot out suppressors, and we tinkered with them a lot, but when some suppressed MP5-SDs came in, we knew what we would take on a mission! The pouches were little used, and some guys cut the stitching between the mag cells, to ostensibly create a larger pouch that could hold M-16 mags. That did not work.

 

    So, that is my take, based on a long drawn story of my encounter with these pouches in the past...these are likely pouches issued with a European sub gun, perhaps even M-45s, but reference works on Swedish gear is sparse. 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by 522