Incomplete Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 I am not sure where to put this post or who to ask so it will go here. I am rather new to the firearms world, and well I am reading up to understand laws and stuff so I may be able to buy a transferable machine gun in the future. Well one thing that I understand little about is C&R. So far all I know is there was a list made of these Curio and Relic guns. What I want to ask is for a Curio and Relic firearm, do you need some sort of special license or can it be transfer the same way any other gun could be or what? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mp40 Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Yes, there is a curio&relic license that needs to be obtained which, as i understand, is fairly easy to get..A law enforcement sign off is required, but that's not too hard. Ask lionhart, i think he has one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill in VA Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 First, C&R firearms are any firearms either: A) 50 years old or older, prior to the current date; http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif any firearm that is certified as a curio or relic by the curator of a museum that displays firearms; or C) any firearm that derives its monetary value because it is novel, rare, bizarre, associated with an historical person/event. FWIW, the BATF (like the aforementioned museum curator) can also render a decision as to a firearm's C&R status. If the firearm in question falls into one of these three categories, it is a C&R. (See 27CFR178.11) Second, no special license is required to purchase or sell a C&R firearm (in other words, unlicensed folks can buy/sell.) A C&R FFL will, however, allow you to purchase a C&R firearm from anyone. It can be shipped interstate to your FFL address (usually the collector's home.) Also, a C&R FFL is not required to execute, either as transferor or tranferee, a Form 4473 ("federal yellow form") or to undergo a NICS background check when receiveing a C&R firearm. If you have any C&R NFA you can also travel interstate with it without having to beg permission from the BATF, and receiving a C&R NFA from out-of-state will save you a $200 transfer tax and 90+/- days in transfer. Bear in mind, as to NICS and transfers, some states laws (California, for example) trump federal laws. To get your C&R FFL call/write/fax/email the BATF licensing center and ask for the application. You fill out the Form 7CR (C&R FFL application) in duplicate, sending one to your local CLEO, and the other, along with a check for $30 and Form 5330.20 (Certificate of Compliance, whereby you attest to the fact that you are a US citizen) to the BATF licensing center. It generally takes anywhere from a week to a month or two to receive your C&R FFL. (mine took 13 days from the day I mailed it off until the day I received it.) For the record, NO CLEO sign-off, photos, or fingerprints are required. Once you receive your new C&R FFL DO NOT sign the original license. Instead, make a bunch of copies, sign those, and draft a cover letter, then send off copies of the cover letter and your signed-in-ink FFL to your favorite distributors. (I highly recomend sending copies to AIM, Empire Arms, Allan's Armory. Their inventory and customer service is top-notch.) Always remember though, a C&R FFL is for collecting, and not for dealing in firearms, and a C&R FFL confers no privilege or benefit for any non-C&R firearms. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry in MI Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 Bill, That truly has to be one of the best short summaries of the C&R I have seen ! Well Done ! I would like to add that you would still need a CLEO sign off for the NFA transfer, regardless of whether you have a C&R (unless you incorporate). Also, for some states, like Michigan http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/mad.gif , you need a FFL (01-Dealer, 03-C&R) to even own a NFA weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill in VA Posted December 14, 2003 Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 Thanks for your kind words Jerry. Yeah, I guess I was a little unclear as to the CLEO sign-off. As you indicated, having a C&R FFL doesn't allow you to skip the whole CLEO/fingerprints/photo/etc... with regards to NFA transfers, nor does it allow the use of Form 3 transfers. What I meant to say was that no CLEO sign-off is required on the C&R FFL application, only that the CLEO has to be notified that you are applying for a C&R FFL (by sending him a copy of your Form 7CR, which the applicant attests to doing upon signing the application.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incomplete Posted December 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2003 Alrighty, thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Jr Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 I agree, Bill in VA did a GREAT JOB!!!! I would like to add, send a signed copy to Brownells ( you get the discount on everything just like a regular FFL does), also to Century Arms, Sarco, etc... Century has some of the best deals on ammo out there and they pay the shipping on orders of over $500 and its only 12.50 for shipping on ammo orders under $500. I think they require a $75 min order. You will get on an e mail list that gives you all the monthly deals on guns and ammo. Its the best $30 you will ever spend if you are into guns and such. Jr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumpy223 Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 I add my comments as a guy who got the C&R solely so I could acquire something full auto here in Michigan. Applying for and getting the C&R was the easy part. Once I had it, I started looking at what was available. I decided on a Reising 50 that a dealer in another state had. After checking his references on another site, we made a deal. About a week later I got the form 4s in the mail and started filling them out. Getting the required CLEO signature was horribly frustrating. I was in the process of forming a corporation when I finally got the signature. From my first contact with the Sheriff to me finally getting a signature took exactly 8 weeks. My gun went pending October 10 and the anticipation is killing me. I am hoping to have it by Christmas (my examiner has an 8 week average) but I am not holding my breath. To get your C&R, download these two PDF forms.... Application - http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/f531016.pdf Certification of compliance - http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/f533020.pdf Print the forms out using 8.5x14 paper. You will need to fill out two copies of the application. A CLEO signature is not required on the application but you do have to send him a copy of the completed application for their records (or trash can). You mail the other copy to the ATF........ The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms P.O. Box 845219 Dallas, Texas 75284-5219 along with a check for $30 made out to The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Thats all there is to applying for the C&R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
private_joker Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 im from michigan and i was wondering is the c&r the only license you need to purchase a full auto firearm? could someone please detail the steps and what i have to apply for to be able to own a full auto firearm in michigan? any help would be much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumpy223 Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 If you want to purchase a machine gun in Michigan without being a dealer, you will need to get the C&R license (see instructions above). Once you have the license, you start shopping for the C&R machine gun you wish to purchase. Once you locate the gun, different sellers will set the terms of the sale. Some require full payment up front while some will start the paperwork with partial payment down and the balance to be paid upon approval by the ATF. Either way, you will have to send a signed copy of your C&R license to the seller. Different sellers handle the paperwork differently. Some dealers will send you the paperwork to fill out and have you return it to them along with a check made out to the ATF for $200 to cover the transfer tax. Then they will foreward the paperwork to the ATF. My dealer filled out his portion of the paperwork (form 4) and then sent it to me. I then filled out my portion of the form 4. There are 2 copies of the form 4 that get filled out. I then had to get two sets of fingerprint cards done at the Sheriffs department on the ATF specified cards. I added a passport quality photo of myself to each copy of the form 4. There is one other form that you need to fill out attesting to your citizenship. This is the same form you filled out to get your C&R license. Once you get the forms filled out, fingerprints taken , and photos attached, comes the hard part. You have to get a Chief Law Enforcement Officer to sign the form attesting to the fact that you owning the gun will not put you in violation of local laws. This signiture can be difficult to obtain if you live in one of Michigans larger population centers. It took me 8 weeks before I finally got the signiture I needed. The sad fact is, They are not required to sign the form, but without the signiture, the ATF will not approve a personal transfer. Once you get the signiture, you write out a check to the ATF for $200 to cover the transfer tax and send everything to them. If the Gods are smiling on you, the seller will get the approved form 4 back in the mail within 120 days or so and he can ship the gun directly to you. I got home tonight and had an e-mail from my dealer saying that he got my approved form 4 in the mail today. I made out pretty good. I sent the peperwork to the ATF on Oct 3 and he got it back December 19, so I beat the 120 day clock by quite a bit. Looks like I will have my first machine gun before Christmas. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Feel free to drop me an e-mail if you have any questions I can help you with. Hope this helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
private_joker Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 are most full auto firearms in the market today c&r? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumpy223 Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 No. I dont have the exact wording in front of me at the moment but a C&R gun is pretty much any gun that is 50 years old and original (not a re-weld or put together from a parts kit), or classified by a museum as a collectible, or derives it monitary value as a rarity. Some C&R machine guns include - Thompson Submachine guns http://www.westernfirearms.com/thompson/221228-2a.JPG - Original M2 carbines http://www.westernfirearms.com/m2/210112-3b.jpg - S&W 76 http://www.westernfirearms.com/sw76/MC000605-3b.JPG - Colt/Armalite AR-15 model 601 - 1919 belt fed - Reisings http://www.westernfirearms.com/reising/TF220115-3a.jpg as well as bunch more. Personally, I feel as though all transferable guns should be classified as C&R being that new ones cannot be made for civilian use. That alone would seem to satisfy the rare/monitary value portion of the C&R description. A shame the ATF doesn't agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondAmend Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Private, From another Michigan resident (and proud owner of a '28A1 TSMG) - no one knows how many full-auto weapons are registered (the transfer is taxed so the information is private and can not even be obtained by a Freedom Of Information Act request). Thus, it is truly impossible to say if "most" of all registered full-auto weapons are C&R. As for most full-auto weapons that are for sale, quite a few are C&R. Review all of the AFT C&R lisitings since they are not consolidated. Keep in mind C&R guns do NOT include such guns as Uzi's, MAC-10/11's, all but a very few prototype M-16's, HK MP-5's and virtually all other modern machine guns. Thus you are limited to what are generally more expensive guns to buy and maintain. The price is generally a matter of desirability, condition, and what the market will bear. The C&R status on ,say an MP-40, when compared to a "tube gun" MP-40 usually adds at least $1000 to the price and the gun may still be a "parts" gun. Many sales appear to be transacted via individuals on www.subguns.com and www,sturmgewehr.com. Like everything else, the dealers tend to be more expensive than the private individuals but the dealers may more flexible in terms of financing (e.g., the individual may have lost his job and need cash up front so the price may be good but balanced by your payout of significant cash when a wait of four to six months or longer for the AFT to process your Form 4 is in the offing). If you have not yet done so, consider buying the booklet on Machinegun Purchasing sold at this website. Lots of good info in one spot. Good luck on your adventure into full-auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
private_joker Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 what would i have to do to buy a non c&r full auto firearm in mich? i have seen some low prices on wilson (i think) tube mp40s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumpy223 Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 I think about your only option would be to become a dealer, dealing in machine guns. I think the annual license fee for the FFL is $500 per year. Probably not the best way to go in order to save $1000 on 1 gun. The nice part however would be that you could have all the good stuff http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondAmend Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 P Joker, For a rather interesting discussion on obtaining a class 3 FFL, please see the Thompson message board and the thread related to Getting a Class 3 in Texas. If that doesn't convince you that you do not want to go the Class 3 route I don't know what will. In my opinion, the most desirable full-auto guns are C&R anyway. If you do not know, thanks to long time, anti-gun Michigan Attorney General Frank Kelley and a sympathetic legislature, Michigan does not allow any other NFA weapons or devices (e.g., no supressors, short barreled rifles, destructive devices, etc.) and C&R full-autos are only allowed by a quirk of the statutes. Look at all the hassle about concealed carry which only got through after Kelley was gone. Again, good luck with your full-auto quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneer_56 Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 Wow, It sounds like most of the guys on here are from Michigan, I am as well. I was looking for exactly what the other guys were asking on how to get a FA in Mi. Thanks to you guys for the answers I have all I needed to know, this site is excellent for information. Andrew http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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