Couple Of Questions

[stevezz1]

Hi All,

 

I have just joined the forum and have been browsing the topics.

 

What do you American guys mean by a 'tube gun' and what does 'C&R' mean?

 

I hope you guys across the pond realise how lucky you are to be able to fire your weapons.

Over here in the U.K. we are reduced to deacs.

Its a pain......But beggars can't be choosers i suppose....... :-(

 

Great looking forum.....keep up the good work.

 

Regards,

 

Steve.

[Delta3-2]

QUOTE (stevezz1 @ Dec 15 2003, 04:55 PM)

Hi All, I have just joined the forum and have been browsing the topics. What do you American guys mean by a 'tube gun' and what does 'C&R' mean? I hope you guys across the pond realise how lucky you are to be able to fire your weapons. Over here in the U.K. we are reduced to deacs. Its a pain......But beggars can't be choosers i suppose....... :-( Great looking forum.....keep up the good work. Regards, Steve.

HI Steve !

 

Here on this side of the pond we can still own and fire fully automatic weapons.

 

A tube gun refers to an automatic weapon that has had it's receiver (or "tube" as it's called sometimes) reconstituted with a new one. Generally a "tube" gun was a weapon that had been de-militarized by the receiver (tube) being cut. To reactivate the weapon a new "tube" was machined. Thus the weapon is not 100% original parts. Effective with new law signed in 1986 no new tubes may ever be manufactured or imported in the USA. So all of these weapons are becoming scarce.

 

A C&R is just an abbreviation for "Curio & Relic". However, a Curio and Relic refers to any firearm that is older than 50 years old, is 100% original parts, and appears on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms listing of C & Rs. A tube gun doesn't qualify as it's receiver (or tube) is new manufacture.

 

For instance...I'm in the process of buying a C & R MP40 (BNZ 43) from a dealer in Florida. Because I have a Curio & Relics license (all it is really is a collector's license) I can take delivery of the MP40 directly. If I didn't have the C&R license or the MP40 was a tube gun I'd have to go thru an Automatic Weapons dealer. Thus I'm able to save some time and some money by cutting out the middle man.

 

I hope this answers your questions. Sound confusing ? Probably is...but, not my intent to confuse.

 

Take care......

 

DAN G.

Girard, PA USA

 

 

[mp40]

To further Dans information, the reason that the receiver tubes where cut in the first place was due to a (domestic firearms manufacturer protection law is what it truly was!) passed in 1968, that prevents the normal citizens of the U.S. from owning foreign made machineguns..They can be possessed only by dealers and military/law enforcement from that point on http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif ..So after 1968, the only way that we could own a post ban mp40, was to have a (legally made of course) receiver manufactured and registered and obtain a complete mp40 parts kit and assemble it...And in 1986, no more period. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/mad.gif

[stevezz1]

Hi Dan and mp.40.........

 

Many thanks for your repies....

 

Steve.

[SecondAmend]

Steve and all,

To throw more fat into the fire, some states here in the U.S.A. (including the one in which I reside) have legislated or decided through court decision that civilian residents (unless they hold AFT Class 2 or 3 Federal Firearms Licenses) can only privately own C & R full-auto weapons. That is one reasons why C & R weapons are generally more expensive than non- C&R guns.

 

Also, a C&R gun may be a "parts" gun. That is, the receiver can be a registered C&R status item while the rest of the gun may be off any number of other guns.

 

Not all C&R guns are over 50 years old and not all guns over 50 years old are necessarily C&R. For instance, Smith & Wesson Mod. 76 submachine guns made up until 1975 are generally C&R. The special WWII, Korean War and Vietnam War Commemorative Model 1928 Thompson submachine guns made in 1983-85 are classified as C&R as are the M1 Models of that era.

 

The C&R status is applied to many firearms, not just full-auto weapons.

 

Another popular "tube" full-auto gun is the Sten (see message board below).

 

 

[Delta3-2]

QUOTE (SecondAmend @ Dec 19 2003, 05:30 PM)

Steve and all, To throw more fat into the fire, some states here in the U.S.A. (including the one in which I reside) have legislated or decided through court decision that civilian residents (unless they hold AFT Class 2 or 3 Federal Firearms Licenses) can only privately own C & R full-auto weapons. That is one reasons why C & R weapons are generally more expensive than non- C&R guns. Also, a C&R gun may be a "parts" gun. That is, the receiver can be a registered C&R status item while the rest of the gun may be off any number of other guns. Not all C&R guns are over 50 years old and not all guns over 50 years old are necessarily C&R. For instance, Smith & Wesson Mod. 76 submachine guns made up until 1975 are generally C&R. The special WWII, Korean War and Vietnam War Commemorative Model 1928 Thompson submachine guns made in 1983-85 are classified as C&R as are the M1 Models of that era. The C&R status is applied to many firearms, not just full-auto weapons. Another popular "tube" full-auto gun is the Sten (see message board below).

Regarding your statements that not all C&R weapons are over 50 years old is true. In the law's most purest form you are correct. However, in all things "government" there are exceptions to the rule. The few weapons you identify are just that, a few weapons out of thousands and thousands qualify as C&R's.

 

The very first definition of a C&R weapon remains firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date. Per the Federal Government's own definition "firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date" indicates to me just that. You state that "not all guns over 50 years old are necessarily C&R". Can you identify these firearms that don't meet the ATF's C&R requirement of over 50 years old ?

 

Dan G.

Girard, PA