Could This Be Barrel Damage From Blanks?

[wwiifirearms]

I took my new toy(Pearl M1A1) to the range and after a few mags of .45 I decided to try to install the BDM .22 kit. To my surprise the barrel insert would not go in from the breech. That is when I noticed a groove about 1/2 in. in past the chamber in the rifling. Hopefully it can be seen in the attached pic (pardon the dirty gun). It seems to have enough of a burr to prevent the BDM barrel from slipping past, but not enough to cause functioning issues when shooting .45.

 

The previous owner fired only blanks in it for over ten years. Could this be damage from blank cases openning up? He used cripped brass blanks.

 

The gun came with an extra NOS barrel. I knew the barrel on the gun wasn't great and had been tapped for a BFA, so I planned to replace it eventually.

 

Should I be concerned about shooting it as-is?

Anyone in the Cleveland, Ohio area that can hang the new barrel for me?

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

-wwiifirearms

Edited August 25, 2010 by wwiifirearms

[Shooter]

WII,

 

I don't know what could cause the barrel damage you pictured. It's probably a good idea to replace it since you have a new barrel. Ohio Ordnance in Chardon could probably replace it for you. I replaced my own barrels. I am in the Cleveland area and have the Richardson barrel wrenches. Contact me off line if you might want to borrow a wrench and do it yourself. If you are looking for a fun shooting opportunity in the NE Ohio ( ~90 min. South of Cleveland ) check out http://www.subguns.com/boards/events.cgi?read=2857 .

 

Regards,

Shooter

[wwiifirearms]

Thanks. I will likely give oow a call.

I guess my main question is do I need to avoid shooting it until I swap barrels?

After a long wait for the transfer, there are two shoots I'd like to do in the next couple of weeks. Obviously I don't want to shoot it if it is unsafe or might damage the gun.

 

-wwiifirearms

[bigbore]

never mind, I learned something new today Edited August 31, 2010 by bigbore

[PK.]

I’ve written about this in the past; yes, the damage is from shooting blanks and is the reason I can never condone shooting blanks and ball in the same barrel. The metal has been displaced to create a partial bore obstruction and if ball ammunition is fired chamber pressures and bolt velocity will be raised as a result.

[Tman]

My WH28 has the same damage. PK did an analysis of my barrel and came to the above conclusion. I have also sent my barrel to a blank manufacturer for study. Paul fit my gun with a quick change feature so I can go from blanks to ball without too much hassle.

[wwiifirearms]

 

Thanks for all the good info.

I am waiting on a call back from OOW to see about getting the new barrel put on.

 

Just so I have options, can anyone suggest others in Ohio that would do good work?

Since the new barrel I have is blue, I'll likely also want then to parkerize the barrel and maybe re-park the receiver at the same time.

 

I was thinking of calling Jim B. At Black River, he has done other barrels for me, but I don't know if he works on TSMG.

 

-wwiifirearms

Edited August 25, 2010 by wwiifirearms

[Shattered]

Good luck with that. I think I chronicled my experience with Ohio Ord here way back when. Long story short, I got a Thompson from CT and the guy stripped all the parts off it and sent them along while we waited for the transfer to finish up. I don't know why, he just did. Ohio Ord was to receive the receiver in and when I went there to do the paperwork from them to me, install the barrel. Day finally came and the paperwork was approved, they told me to come get the gun (receiver). When I got there, they hadn't installed the barrel... they had the barrel and receiver there for something like 5 months. Wasn't done, told me to hang around a bit... they'd get'er done.

 

I spent all day there arriving at 9am (I worked nights and just drove there after I got out at 7am). I ended up leaving there at 4pm with barrel in one hand and receiver in the other... I had to get some sleep. 11pm comes quick enough, never mind when you're P.O.ed and sleep deprived. Another month goes by and I finally get a call from Ohio Ord... and they were mad at ME because I left that day. That was the last transfer I ever had them do, and the last time I ever bothered doing any bidness there. Landies sees me at the Creek and turns the other way... guess he doesn't like me. Oh... I'm like, heartbroken.

 

Ended up installing the barrel myself with loctite and a Sears rubber strapwrench. Had no problems what so ever since.

 

They CAN be a mother to get off, however. Luckily, I had an old set of GUNMACHINES barrel vises that got my old barrel off without frakking it up when I did the quick change barrel mod. I DID rock the old huge wooden table almost over breaking the barrel loose from that locktite (and that was WITH heat).

[RoscoeTurner]

I took my new toy(Pearl M1A1) to the range and after a few mags of .45 I decided to try to install the BDM .22 kit. To my surprise the barrel insert would not go in from the breech. That is when I noticed a groove about 1/2 in. in past the chamber in the rifling. Hopefully it can be seen in the attached pic (pardon the dirty gun). It seems to have enough of a burr to prevent the BDM barrel from slipping past, but not enough to cause functioning issues when shooting .45.

 

The previous owner fired only blanks in it for over ten years. Could this be damage from blank cases openning up? He used cripped brass blanks.

 

The gun came with an extra NOS barrel. I knew the barrel on the gun wasn't great and had been tapped for a BFA, so I planned to replace it eventually.

 

Should I be concerned about shooting it as-is?

Anyone in the Cleveland, Ohio area that can hang the new barrel for me?

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

-wwiifirearms

 

 

That is why I will not buy a firearm that has been "reenactored". They often are not the best at taking care of their firearms.

[Mk VII]

+1 on that. I've seen some guns that had been in great shape when the reenactor acquired them and have just been allowed to rust. Many seem to just stick it in the cupboard on Sunday night and forget about it until it's time to go again.

[wwiifirearms]

Fortunately the general care for this gun seems to have been fairly good and the seller included the new barrel. I was able to personally inspect and even fire the gun before buying, so if I missed the damage it is on me. The price was still right and replacing the barrel was in the long term plan anyway just because I didn't want a barrel that had been tapped for a BFA. I wouldn't be afraid to buy another shooter gun from a reenactor under the same situation. IMO there just are enough NFA guns at reasonable prices to completely write-off guns that might need some work.

 

I am sorry to hear the experience with OOW wasn't good. I have always had good luck dealing with them, but haven't used them on any NFA guns or gunsmithing. I will likely have Jim at Black River do the work just because he is close to my house and he has done nice work (even if not the fastest) on everything I ever gave him.

-wwiifirearms

[Sarge]

I'm wondering if it could be the blanks you guys were using in those guns?

I've had 2 M1A1s for 15 yrs and both are used in reenacting and both are shot regularly with live ammo.

I have never had the problems you describe.

I have a friend with a Pearl M1A1 that has had the same use for about 20 yrs and he has had no problems.

Sarge

[wwiifirearms]

He used blanks from Joe Swanson.

 

Have you checked your guns for any sign of damage? It was actually pretty easy to miss because the ring is so perfect it almost looks like the end of the chamber unless you hold a light at just the right spot to see both.

 

I actually wonder if occasionally shooting ball would have made the burr small by knocking down before it got big. He only shot blanks so maybe it built up more than on a gun used for both.

 

I think this weekend I am going to see a machinist friend and if he can ream the burr out I might at least be able to put the .22 kit in and play with it a bit before sending it to the shop for the new barrel. Won't be doing any .45 shooting until the new barrel is on.

-wwiifirearms

Edited August 28, 2010 by wwiifirearms

[dalbert]

All,

 

I just added a link to this thread in the Thompson reference pinned post at the top of the board. I think it will have value for someone in the future who considers shooting ball ammo and blank ammo through the same barrel.

 

Thanks!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[reconbob]

I'm curious about this. I don't know how much this has been

studied. I find it hard to believe (but will certainly believe it if

its true) that brass blanks would be able to displace the steel

of a gun barrel in such a distinct and symetrical way as the ring

in your barrel. I am skeptical because brass is much softer than

a gun barrel - especially cartridge brass which is quite soft.

Thats a heck of a ring and I don't see any groove

or recess where the steel came from to build up the ring.

The Swanson blank would seat at the end of the chamber. That

ring is where the end of the blank would be when the star crimp

of the blank opens. What I am wondering is if its possible that

the ring is actually brass that has been built up in someway a

tiny bit at a time over the firing of many rounds.

I would like to study this barrel. Cut it open and see what's

really going on. When you decide to rebarrel I will be glad to

make you a deal if I can keep the barrel. We rebarrel all the

time so I would be able to give you a quick turn around - like

a week or two.

 

Bob/Philly O

[Sarge]

I used swansons blanks many years ago, but quit as soon as I found another source for reliable blanks. The swanson blanks are loaded hot as hell AND he uses flash powder in his loads - he is primarily in the movie blank business. None of this bodes well for the weapon AND is a fire hazzard for reenacting in a dry grass area.

Sarge

[RoscoeTurner]

Bob,

 

I have seen many G43s over the years that have had the upper end area of the chamber eaten away from blank firing.

 

 

[reconbob]

Yes. I am familiar with the bore erosion caused by blanks. But I have never

seen a ring built up like this - its the opposite of erosion, I think its some type of deposit.

I am wondering if when the very hot Swanson blanks are fired a tiny bit of brass is

vaporized and adheres to the barrel.

This is actually a standard industrial process. For many years a way to restore

worn shafts has been to revolved them on a lathe type machine and spray metallic

dust thru an oxy-acetylene flame onto the shaft. The dust burns red hot and instantly

hits the cooler shaft and bonds with the surface. The shaft is then ground back to

size. Of course brass is not used for this but you get the idea...

 

Bob

[PK.]

Bob,

I’ve seen several of these barrels and the problem is not deposited brass. The steel is displaced like a wave of water, forming a groove closer to the chamber and a ridge at its edge, like the crest of a wave. I do not believe it’s the brass case that is doing this, but rather the pressure wave from the charge.

 

Swanson blanks seem to be associated with this phenomenon, but with the proper size BFD installed they seem to operate the action perfectly well and I see no need for concern there.

 

[wwiifirearms]

The barrel is now off the gun, and the new barrel is on.

I was going to sell the damaged barrel if I could find someone that just wanted something for shooting blanks, but would be open to other options. (I don't expect it is worth much. I wouldn't mind having some spare springs and an ejector.)

 

If anyone wants to inspect it and just ship it back when they are done, I'd be happy to send it to you.

 

It appears to have both a groove and a ring. If you have ever seen the process of explosion welding I imagine it is something like this taking place. (This is the same process used to make the clad metals for coins like a US Quarter).

 

Looking closely at the ring it appears to be brass and steel fused together. Using a seal pic I can feel the pic drop into a groove just before the ring. It is very hard to tell visually because of the glare and shadows created when lighting the bore.

 

It was suggested that it might just be a brass ring and could be removed, so I tried before replacing the barrel. I soaked in a solvant (that is known to eat brass) for four hours. I then used a stainless steel bore brush (cringe) attached to a power drill (ouch). The ring did not budge. It may have some brass in it, but it definately has steel as well.

 

-wwiifirearms

 

 

[reconbob]

Paul - thanks for the info. Its always good to hear from someone who

has specific knowledge. I have just finished reworking some guns (Kahr)

into blank guns for re-enactors and those Swanson blanks are very loud

and very powerful. Even with the proper blank adaptor fitted the empty

cartridges cases are ejected a long way - much farther than the cases

when firing ball ammo. I have heard that some re-enactors use other

than Swanson blanks because they consider them to be too hot.

 

Bob

[darrylta]

It sounds like it should be donated to science (ReconBob).

It could then be sectioned then evaluated.

 

I doubt if you can claim it on your taxes :-)

 

-Darryl

Edited August 31, 2010 by darrylta

[wwiifirearms]

It sounds like it should be donated to science (ReconBob).

It could then be sectioned then evaluated.

 

I doubt if you can claim it on your taxes :-)

 

-Darryl

 

I think if he promised to take really cool pictures and post them on on the board, we could arrange that.

 

I did tell the previous owner that if any of his reenactor friends wanted to buy it, I had it available. Assuming none of them "make me an offer I can't refuse", I'd be happy to donate it to the cause.

 

ReconBob,

If you want it, let me know.

 

-wwiifirearms

[reconbob]

Yes I still want the barrel, although PK has set us all straight

on the deformation. I can still section it and photograph the ring

and post for all to see...

 

Bob

Edited August 31, 2010 by reconbob

[rjb1]

Among reenactors the Swanson blanks are looked down upon somewhat. They have excessive flash and noise and are a nuisance to be around even with ear protection. There are several blank vendors who make more reasonably charged blanks that function perfectly well and are definitely not as hard on the people and are probably not as hard on the firearms (including this barrel problem).

 

For movies the Swanson blanks may be necessary, but not for reenacting.

 

As for this particular barrel, I was wondering if you (Bob) have microscopic metallographic testing capability. If not, I volunteer, if you decide to section it lengthwise, to analyze one side of it using classic polish and etch techniques to see what is going on at the metal grain-structure level.

 

I used to do that all the time when I was doing research for NASA on automated welding. I think I can still find all the reagents and etc. if I look around.

We may or may not see anything interesting, but you never know until you try.

 

Joel