1907 Winchester With Thompson Foregrip

[rcjrb]

On gunbroker.

 

 

http://www.gunbroker...?Item=277913285

[OCM]

Pretty cool, one little difference the Lebman 07s were full auto. It's pretty much believed Dillinger's contact with Lebman was through Baby Face Nelson.

 

Here is one of the real Lebman Winchesters, on display in Tucson. Captured from the Dillinger gang in 1934.

 

OCM

Edited January 7, 2013 by OCM

[full auto 45]

I should do that with one of my 1907's.

[OCM]

I should do that with one of my 1907's.

 

 

This would be much more fun- Need a 38 Super. The drawings to modify one were in Small Arms Review some time ago. Not sure how Lebman secured the wood front grip. I've heard they were uncontrolable . Good old HS Lebman. Rick Cartlidge was going to write a book on him, also Helmer. I think his son died before Bill could get enough information- ?

 

OCM

Edited March 10, 2013 by OCM

[dalbert]

I should do that with one of my 1907's.

 

 

This would be much more fun- Need a 38 Super. The drawings to modify one were in Small Arms Review some time ago. Not sure how Lebman secured the wood front grip. I've heard they were uncontrolable . Good old HS Lebman. Rick Cartlidge was going to write a book on him, also Helmer. I think his son died before Bill could get enough information- ?

 

OCM

 

OCM,

 

Helmer hasn't confirmed the passing of Lebman's son, but assumes that he has probably passed by now, based on the length of time, and his health at the last time that Bill spoke to him. Helmer has a keen interest in the Lebman guns...I sent him the issue of SAR with the article...I believe it was around the September 2001 issue.

 

I really like the Model 1907's, and have been meaning to add one to my collection for the past several years. When the right one comes around, I'll probably buy it.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[OCM]

I should do that with one of my 1907's.

 

 

This would be much more fun- Need a 38 Super. The drawings to modify one were in Small Arms Review some time ago. Not sure how Lebman secured the wood front grip. I've heard they were uncontrolable . Good old HS Lebman. Rick Cartlidge was going to write a book on him, also Helmer. I think his son died before Bill could get enough information- ?

 

OCM

 

OCM,

 

Helmer hasn't confirmed the passing of Lebman's son, but assumes that he has probably passed by now, based on the length of time, and his health at the last time that Bill spoke to him. Helmer has a keen interest in the Lebman guns...I sent him the issue of SAR with the article...I believe it was around the September 2001 issue.

 

I really like the Model 1907's, and have been meaning to add one to my collection for the past several years. When the right one comes around, I'll probably buy it.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

 

I wished I hadn't of sold mine, or the cars etc. Great gun, clean, well made. One of the biggest problems was ammo, rare and costly.

jim c 351 , is the guy to talk to about reloading and being able to fire the thing with out selling the house.

 

They are all the right ones, David, just step up and lay out the cash. The new baby can't cost that much, YET. ( hurry)

[DarkSide25]

OCM,

 

please, tell me, do you know, the full-auto Lebman Winchester 1907 has fire-selector?

10-round magazine is too small for a normal automatic fire.

Maybe, uses a 20-round magazine, like on this photo?

 

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/5539/win07tr.jpg

 

I also read, that Homer Van Meter once used silencer of Maxim, attached instead of the compensator.

 

Regards,

DarkSide

Edited November 14, 2012 by DarkSide25

[OCM]

The one 07 in Tucson is the full auto Lebman mod, the other is a standard model that they stole in Auburn. Select fire, don't know. These were traded back and forth between Tucson and the FBI for their displays. I don't know if the 07s were even ever used by the gang, I don't think so. Nelson had one at the Barrington battle too, that a Thompson and a Colt Monitor. I think there were two models of the Lebman 07s around, had two different muzzle breaks.

Little rusty here haven't visited this subject in a while.

Here is a shot of the Tucson officers with the two Winchesters, one modifies, other not. The front grip is long gone too these days.

There was also a couple recovered from the little Bo battle, don't recall them being modified either, at least not a compensator mounted.

Never heard of Van Meter using a silencer but very well could of I guess.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Nice looking 07 police rifle, never seen one

Edited January 7, 2013 by OCM

[OCM]

I think this topic needs to be moved to the outlaw/gangster/cops area, but don't know that is done. David ?

[DarkSide25]

The one 07 in Tucson is the full auto Lebman mod, the other is a standard model that they stole in Auburn. Select fire, don't know. These were traded back and forth between Tucson and the FBI for their displays. I don't know if the 07s were even ever used by the gang, I don't think so. Nelson had one at the Barrington battle too, that a Thompson and a Colt Monitor. I think there were two models of the Lebman 07s around, had two different muzzle breaks.

Little rusty here haven't visited this subject in a while.

Here is a shot of the Tucson officers with the two Winchesters, one modifies, other not. The front grip is long gone too these days.

There was also a couple recovered from the little Bo battle, don't recall them being modified either, at least not a compensator mounted.

Never heard of Van Meter using a silencer but very well could of I guess.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Nice looking 07 police rifle, never seen one

 

Very interesting information and photos!

 

Silencer was a regular acessory for this rifle, so that its use was very likely.

To the best of my memory, in St. Paul apartment was found 13 loaded 20 rd. magazines for Winchester 1907. Also 15 rd. and 20rd. magazines was popular in Cuba together with similar full-auto modifications Winchester 1907. In fact, this was one of the first assault rifles.

 

Thank you for your help!

[dalbert]

I think this topic needs to be moved to the outlaw/gangster/cops area, but don't know that is done. David ?

 

OCM,

 

I agree, and it is now moved...

 

David

[OCM]

 

 

The one 07 in Tucson is the full auto Lebman mod, the other is a standard model that they stole in Auburn. Select fire, don't know. These were traded back and forth between Tucson and the FBI for their displays. I don't know if the 07s were even ever used by the gang, I don't think so. Nelson had one at the Barrington battle too, that a Thompson and a Colt Monitor. I think there were two models of the Lebman 07s around, had two different muzzle breaks.
Little rusty here haven't visited this subject in a while.
Here is a shot of the Tucson officers with the two Winchesters, one modifies, other not. The front grip is long gone too these days.
There was also a couple recovered from the little Bo battle, don't recall them being modified either, at least not a compensator mounted.
Never heard of Van Meter using a silencer but very well could of I guess.

Hope that helps.

Nice looking 07 police rifle, never seen one

Very interesting information and photos!

Silencer was a regular acessory for this rifle, so that its use was very likely.
To the best of my memory, in St. Paul apartment was found 13 loaded 20 rd. magazines for Winchester 1907. Also 15 rd. and 20rd. magazines was popular in Cuba together with similar full-auto modifications Winchester 1907. In fact, this was one of the first assault rifles.

Thank you for your help!

I have a huge list of items recovered from the Lincoln Court apartment, couldn't believe all the stuff that had, of course they weren't the only ones living in #303, Hamilton for awhile. I don't recall ever seeing a list of weapons that were taken, and I don't recall why. Paul M had a large file for his book that he was kind enough to dontate to the library or something there in St Paul. Somehow I remember when researching the escape, there were no lists of the guns & SN#s
If you have that be great to see. We know he took # 7387 Thompson with him and #6444 was captured at the Green killing. FBI has the Colt mini ( somewhere, I think in Quantico ) .
Didn't know a silencer and or compensator was a regular accessory, the Henwood book doesn't mention that in the accessories. The one or two I've seen on the outlaw 351s, had the one I've pictured above from the Tucson photos, 1934. I assumed these were made by Lebman but very similar to the different ones ( Cutts) that appear on the Colt Monitors. Rick Cartlidge had told me the Lebman made them but maybe reffering to the Colt minis.
Not real up on compensators or silencers except on the Thompson. A little confusing.
good information, thanks.

OCM Edited November 20, 2015 by OCM

[DarkSide25]

I have a huge list of items recovered from the Lincoln Court apartment, couldn't believe all the stuff that had, of course they weren't the only ones living in #303, Hamilton for awhile. I don't recall ever seeing a list of weapons that were taken, and I don't recall why. Paul M had a large file for his book that he was kind enough to dontate to the library or something there in St Paul. Somehow I remember when researching the escape, there were no lists of the guns & SN#s If you have that be great to see. We know he took # 7387 Thompson with him and #6444 was captured at the Van Meter killing. FBI has the Colt mini ( somewhere, I think in Quantico ) .

Unfortunately, I do not have the list, information about the 13 magazines I read in one of the gun forums. Perhaps something interesting on this topic can be found at this site.

Didn't know a silencer and or compensator was a regular accessory, the Henwood book doesn't mention that in the accessories.

Compensator is not standard accessory, but the silencer - was. Attachment picture of the advertising catalog, published in the Russian Empire.

It shows a Winchester 1907 with a silencer, and its advertising claims that the silencer pure hunting (!) purpose.

The one or two I've seen on the outlaw 351s, had the one I've pictured above from the Tucson photos, 1934. I assumed these were made by Lebman but very similar to the different ones ( Cutts) that appear on the Colt Monitors. Rick Cartlidge had told me the Lebman made them but maybe reffering to the Colt minis. Not real up on compensators or silencers except on the Thompson. A little confusing. good information, thanks. OCM

Yes, Winchester compensator is very similar to the compensator Colt Monitor.

 

Regards,

Darkside

[OCM]

Wow, didn't know that- I knew the gun was mainly used by law enforcement, I guess really to expensive for most private users. I really loved the one I had, I think it was SN #521, but that's from memory. I had the 10 rd magazine on it too.

As stated the one in Tucson was stolen from the Auburn PD by Dillinger.

 

Yes, odd they would use a silencer for hunting, get busted by the Elk Squad or something .

 

The one you have pictured is a rare bird, especially with a Winchester bayonet mounted up front. It seemed to be somewhat of a flop as the Police & Sheriff PDs didn't see much use for a bayonet fighting the likes of a John Dillinger.

Still twice the gun then a Remington Model 8. We did a private comparison/shooting doing research on Clyde Barrow- Winchester 07, Rem model 8 and 1918 BAR. Mainly the 07, 351 and model 8, 35 of course. Browning floating barrel design would stick sometimes and LOUD, the 07 was flawless.

 

Wonderful weapon, very under rated- IMHO

 

OCM

 

Jim C should be chiming in on this, he's the 07 guy on the forum.

Edited November 23, 2012 by OCM

[dalbert]

I am aware of a former Maryland State Police Winchester Model 1907 that has a bayonet and mount. Pretty cool stuff. It was on display at the TATA Show and Shoot last year.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[OCM]

I am aware of a former Maryland State Police Winchester Model 1907 that has a bayonet and mount. Pretty cool stuff. It was on display at the TATA Show and Shoot last year.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

BTW David, have you got one yet ? Financial priorities are probably still in the child care business these days.

OCM

Edited November 25, 2012 by OCM

[dalbert]

I am aware of a former Maryland State Police Winchester Model 1907 that has a bayonet and mount. Pretty cool stuff. It was on display at the TATA Show and Shoot last year.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

BTW David, have you got one yet ? Financial priorities are probably still in the child care business these days.

OCM

 

OCM,

 

I put buying a 1907 on standby for a while because I bought a prototype Reising Model 65 .22 rifle. (WWII H&R test rifle for production of the Model 65 for the Marine Corps) A 1907 is still on my short list, though...

 

David

[OCM]

The one 07 in Tucson is the full auto Lebman mod, the other is a standard model that they stole in Auburn. Select fire, don't know. These were traded back and forth between Tucson and the FBI for their displays. I don't know if the 07s were even ever used by the gang, I don't think so. Nelson had one at the Barrington battle too, that a Thompson and a Colt Monitor. I think there were two models of the Lebman 07s around, had two different muzzle breaks. Little rusty here haven't visited this subject in a while. Here is a shot of the Tucson officers with the two Winchesters, one modifies, other not. The front grip is long gone too these days. There was also a couple recovered from the little Bo battle, don't recall them being modified either, at least not a compensator mounted. Never heard of Van Meter using a silencer but very well could of I guess. Hope that helps. Nice looking 07 police rifle, never seen one

Very interesting information and photos! Silencer was a regular acessory for this rifle, so that its use was very likely. To the best of my memory, in St. Paul apartment was found 13 loaded 20 rd. magazines for Winchester 1907. Also 15 rd. and 20rd. magazines was popular in Cuba together with similar full-auto modifications Winchester 1907. In fact, this was one of the first assault rifles. Thank you for your help!

 

If you look closely, in the left picture on posting #8 above, there are two Winchester 07s, the two guys in thefront have them. BOTH have a Thompson grip on them, which would indicate two Lebman conversions, one with the Compensator, other without. The second picture shows only the one, we concluded this was probably an evidence photo for trial/deposition. ( this was this last summer when we were running Thompson #s)

This photo I took, shows the Lebman one and the unaltered one they took from the Auburn PD. Interesting. Wonder whose got the other one, think it was the FBI.

 

OCM

 

 

The one 07 in Tucson is the full auto Lebman mod, the other is a standard model that they stole in Auburn. Select fire, don't know. These were traded back and forth between Tucson and the FBI for their displays. I don't know if the 07s were even ever used by the gang, I don't think so. Nelson had one at the Barrington battle too, that a Thompson and a Colt Monitor. I think there were two models of the Lebman 07s around, had two different muzzle breaks. Little rusty here haven't visited this subject in a while. Here is a shot of the Tucson officers with the two Winchesters, one modifies, other not. The front grip is long gone too these days. There was also a couple recovered from the little Bo battle, don't recall them being modified either, at least not a compensator mounted. Never heard of Van Meter using a silencer but very well could of I guess. Hope that helps. Nice looking 07 police rifle, never seen one

Very interesting information and photos! Silencer was a regular acessory for this rifle, so that its use was very likely. To the best of my memory, in St. Paul apartment was found 13 loaded 20 rd. magazines for Winchester 1907. Also 15 rd. and 20rd. magazines was popular in Cuba together with similar full-auto modifications Winchester 1907. In fact, this was one of the first assault rifles. Thank you for your help!

 

If you look closely, in the left picture on posting #8 above, there are two Winchester 07s, the two guys in thefront have them. BOTH have a Thompson grip on them, which would indicate two Lebman conversions, one with the Compensator, other without. The second picture shows only the one, we concluded this was probably an evidence photo for trial/deposition. ( this was this last summer when we were running Thompson #s)

This photo I took, shows the Lebman one and the unaltered one they took from the Auburn PD. Interesting. Wonder whose got the other one, think it was the FBI.

 

OCM

Edited January 7, 2013 by OCM

[Ivan]

Had a Winchester 1910 in .401 a long time ago,traded it off. Ammo was hard to find,difficult to make.Had a good THUMP to it when fired.

 

Bought a 07 .351 a couple years ago at good price. Problem was it had a broken firing pin.

Had to remove bolt/counter weight assembly from the action,a bit of a job. The busted pin was about frozen in place. A little KROIL fixed that.

The REALLY tough job was getting it back together ! The recoli spring is a bear. It took four hands,had my son help. Action clamped in padded vise,fed the spring in with screwdrivers and muscle. Got it together on second try.

If the firing pin breaks again I'll sell it cheap !

 

Very interesting rifles,the .351 had a good reputation as a short range deer/mankiller.

The Russians and French used the .351 and .401 in WWI,first in airplanes ,then some found there way to the trenches.

The French made spare 10 shot mags and ammo for them.

[OCM]

Henwood was doubtful in his book the French ever really used the Model 1910, as there were only 3148 produced from 1914-1918, however the French did load 401 ammo for military use. Lot of detail about the 401, including if you can find any, the bullets sell for about 5 bucks each. Understand your selling it.

I wish I was more astute, when the guy told me about being able to take the Lebman one apart in Tucson, I don't think I would understand anyway.

The idea of running 10 or so rounds thru a Winchester 07 on full auto, is quite impressive.

Since Lebman was running guns to Poncho Villa, I would have to say, he had developed this full auto version way prior to the likes of John Dillinger or Baby Face Nelson. The famous John Dillinger era, only lasted a short 14 months and took a bit of time to gain his historical notoriety.

The Forgotten Winchesters; A History of the models 1905, 1907 and 1910 Self-Loading Rifles, by John Henwood. Published by the author in 1995.

A great book on the Winchesters, super detail, WAY over my head ( easy)

 

OCM