inertord Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 I guess that this guys missed the BATFE Thompson SMG Demill Procedures Memo . 1928 Parts Set: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem....?Item=162824700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireMerc Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 What happened to the "Truth in Advertising" thread? This was just being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS9091 Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 What happened to the "Truth in Advertising" thread? This was just being discussed. I think that was over on ARFCOM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atc310r Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 It's just saw cut instead of torch??? I have heard different things of whether it's supposed to be saw cut or torch but I would feel "legally confident" purchasing that kit, a little steep in price though...... I know the argument could be made that you could weld this back together easily (I'm not a great welder but I probably could...) but I feel even if the BATF found it they would just confiscate it. For the record there is an M1A1 receiver that pops up now and again with ONE saw cut through it!!!! Definitely do not buy that one, hell it might be the BATF selling it trying to hook you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob@rat-tat-tat Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 It's just saw cut instead of torch??? I have heard different things of whether it's supposed to be saw cut or torch but I would feel "legally confident" purchasing that kit, a little steep in price though...... I know the argument could be made that you could weld this back together easily (I'm not a great welder but I probably could...) but I feel even if the BATF found it they would just confiscate it. For the record there is an M1A1 receiver that pops up now and again with ONE saw cut through it!!!! Definitely do not buy that one, hell it might be the BATF selling it trying to hook you! Hello, All. I'm not up on the BATFE requirements for cutting a receiver, but I'm under the impression that the minimum requirement is that it has to be cut into three pieces, and that one piece has to be missing(?), which makes no sense to me. If I have a barrel full of cut receivers, would I have a barrel full of "scrap" steel, or would I barrel full of "hot water"? Too bad that "criminal intent" plays NO PART in any discussion about this. Anyone know what the regulation/rule/guidance actually states? Regards, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS9091 Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 I believe they have specific instructions on how to cut it up. I believe it is three angled torch cuts with at least a minimum of 1/4" material removed with each cut. This is just off the top of my head (not out of my @$$) from past threads on this matter, so I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time (especially according to my wife ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted March 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 It's just saw cut instead of torch??? I have heard different things of whether it's supposed to be saw cut or torch but I would feel "legally confident" purchasing that kit, a little steep in price though...... I know the argument could be made that you could weld this back together easily (I'm not a great welder but I probably could...) but I feel even if the BATF found it they would just confiscate it. For the record there is an M1A1 receiver that pops up now and again with ONE saw cut through it!!!! Definitely do not buy that one, hell it might be the BATF selling it trying to hook you! http://i42.tinypic.com/125q3bb.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 It's just saw cut instead of torch??? Saw cut was at one time the standard until all the home builders got busy finally drawing the attention of ATF which resulted in changes to the destruction requirements. Since this kit also includes the barrel it is fairly safe to say this is not a very recent import. Some seem to think all parts kits for sale on GunBroker are recent imports. The importation ruling I find for the touch cut is dated 24 Jan 2003. I find no mention of changes required to be made to receivers cut prior to that ruling. I should also mention that I have a Thompson kit and MG34 kit that were legally purchased many years ago that are saw cut. I have yet to see any where a requirement that retroactively applies the current standard of torch cut to older saw cut parts such as these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 I have been licensed-in-the-gun-business for over 35 years. Back around 1976 I sent ATF a letter about the exact topic discussed here - what is the correct/legal way to destroy a machine gun receiver. And the reply I received back then is virtually identical to the reply I received last year - must be torch cut in three places, torch must burn away a certain amount, etc. So if saw cut was a "standard" it would have to be a pre-1976 standard and back then it had not yet occurred to anyone to destroy a machine-gun and sell it as a parts set. Saying that something was "legally purchased" means nothing unless it came with some sort of ATF approval letter. All it means is that the seller said it was legal. I think what happened here is that small-time sellers saw cut guns that were in the country and had not been registered. These sellers sold them as "legal", and it became sort of an urban myth and seemed to make sense because the ATF never really cracked down on it because it was not big numbers and because the guns were usually complex milled receiver guns. Different story for STENs. STENs are so easy to make it got to the point that possesion of a parts set and a raw tube would, if the ATF so desired, be considered "a set of parts from which a firerarm can be assembled". If you talk about big business and big numbers - places that bought large quantities of guns overseas and cut the receivers to be able to bring in parts sets, I know of no example where the ENTIRE receiver was imported if it was only saw cut. The Thompson receiver sections that are showing up are the residue from the parts sets. The front piece came in with the parts set, the rear two pieces - not a complete receiver - came in later. I mentioned in a previous thread back in the late 1970's there was a guy in Canada who advertised in Shotgun News and was selling a wide selection of machine guns which he would saw cut in one non-critical place, and mail the whole gun to the buyer in USA. He had a good run for a while but he was eventually shut down by ATF in cooperation with Canadian authorities. So while there are a lot of saw cut receivers out there, there is certainly no evidence that they are approved by the ATF, especially since the ATF has been consistent for 35+ years about how guns have to be deactivated. I would not worry if I had one, but then again I would not put it up on Gunbroker for the world to see either... Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Well, you have seven years on me with the FFL thing. I didn't get started with it until 1983. Guess they missed this guy too - http://www.brpguns.com/mg42.htm Certainly looks like some saw cuts here and if ATF was as fired up about saw cuts as the internet forums make them out to be these parts sets would not be confiscated in a minute. As with the part sets I have purchased "legally" none contained a complete receiver, all were missing sections as this auction does. If ATF really cared as much about these type auctions as people who post these auction links do we would not be seeing these items offered for sale. As far as this auction is concerned it is all a big flap that is essentually a non starter as far as ATF is concerned, they have much more important issues to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Does this need a permanent spot up top? Seems like a weekly/monthly subject... Just sayin.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Does this need a permanent spot up top? Seems like a weekly/monthly subject... Just sayin.... I agree, the vast majority of these type threads are nothing but a waste of time. If people are so concerned about these type auctions instead of posting here they should be calling the ATF Rapid Repsonse Team to go after these people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atc310r Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Guys I think the problem is here that everybody has a basic human fear of what they can't understand, and can anyone here say the "understand" all the BATF's actions throughout the years? Like Roscoe, I would buy a kit such as this without fear, but there was another one that was obviously completed post-ban and had one say cut through that I would not buy.... We have all heard the horror stories of the BATF, some may be hopped up and exaggerated but there is a grain of truth in there somewhere regardless. The plain and simple fact is nobody wants to have to tango with the BATF in court. Hell, I'll be the first one to say that according to US vs. Miller the NFA does not apply to a Thompson, and the Hughes Amendment is unconstitutional according to the same case. But do I want to have to defend myself against the BATF in court, hell no. And everybody here is in the same boat, it's hard to fight your own tax dollars.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 Does this need a permanent spot up top? Seems like a weekly/monthly subject... Just sayin.... I agree, the vast majority of these type threads are nothing but a waste of time. If people are so concerned about these type auctions instead of posting here they should be calling the ATF Rapid Repsonse Team to go after these people. Now I know I've been here too long... Roscoe agreeing with and even championing my cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireMerc Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 Now I know I've been here too long... Roscoe agreeing with and even championing my cause? Next your Warn will go to 0%...and then what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted April 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 Does this need a permanent spot up top? Seems like a weekly/monthly subject... Just sayin.... I agree, the vast majority of these type threads are nothing but a waste of time. If people are so concerned about these type auctions instead of posting here they should be calling the ATF Rapid Repsonse Team to go after these people. My purpose of posting this here was to make board members (especially newer members to the hobby) aware of possible NFA Legal Ramifications if interested in purchasing this kit. Not everyone is aware of every current BATFE Law / Ruling (including me) and this board has always been a wealth of legal information related to the Thompson in the past. As far as the seller, goes he / she is also responsible for knowing all legalities in listing any NFA Related Item. I was always under the impression that machinegunbookscom and its members were "On The Side Of Law and Order" on all matters related to the Thompson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atc310r Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 (edited) I was always under the impression that machinegunbookscom and its members were "On The Side Of Law and Order" on all matters related to the Thompson? What if that law violates the constitution of the United States of America? My state's constitution? My natural right as a being to defend myself? I'm just giving you a hard time! haha I'm not violation of any laws and I hope nobody on this board is for their sake! But never the less my above point is something to always consider... As per this issue being made a sticky on the top of the forum....... I'd hate to add ANOTHER one, is there anyway it can be incorporated into a pre-existing one? Edited April 1, 2010 by atc310r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 I was always under the impression that machinegunbookscom and its members were "On The Side Of Law and Order" on all matters related to the Thompson? We are but those type post get old especially since the folks at Gunbroker don't care and it appears ATF doesn't either based on the numbers of such sales being allowed over the years. Go to Knob Creek and you will see plenty of saw cut parts sets, at least there were some last October, being sold in the open with ATF and law enforcement present and no one giving those parts sets a second thought other than to consider buying one or not. If anyone sees or think they see a crime being committed call law enforcement, reporting the crime here isn't going to go very far in catching a crook. As far as being on the side of law and order, how many people have posted in the last year or so asking questions then when the subject of paperwork or registation is mentioned disappear? Now to me that is much more a sign of a possible crime being committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 Next your Warn will go to 0%...and then what. Amazingly from what I see in the record none of those little warning dots have my name connected to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted April 3, 2010 Report Share Posted April 3, 2010 Next your Warn will go to 0%...and then what. Amazingly from what I see in the record none of those little warning dots have my name connected to them. No, my warning dots never disappear, but my post, on occasion, do. My dots remind me of the good old days of being the board jerk according to those whose names we must not speak. To the actual thread Inertord: Alls I am saying that this comes up with regularity to the point that maybe it should be permanent. Maybe something up top explaining "correct" demilling processes etc. that could benefit all who come here without having to start a "new" thread time and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atc310r Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Alright THIS M1A1 receiver is illegal! Somebody call the Gestapo!! I mean BATF.......... And he wants $900 HAHAHAHA http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem....?Item=163090825 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Alright THIS M1A1 receiver is illegal! Somebody call the Gestapo!! I mean BATF.......... And he wants $900 HAHAHAHA http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem....?Item=163090825 Here is the phone number, knock yourself out - Report Illegal Firearms Activity 1-800-ATF-GUNS (1-800-283-4867) http://www.atf.gov/contact/hotlines/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atc310r Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 haha thanks for the offer Roscoe, but it will a cold day in hell when I decide to call to "report" illegal gun activity. Anyway I was merely trying to show one of the receivers that really is in clear violation of the law. We can argue all day about the saw cut vs torch and where the cuts are exactly but as long as there are two cuts I would purchase it without fear. One cut such as this is a different story..... I agree with what you are saying about how the BATF obviously does not have this on their priority list, but I don't want anybody on this board to be the unlucky S.O.B. who they wish to make an example out of you know? That's all I'm really getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchcommando Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 There are 2 guys on GB who make a living welding TSMG receivers back togather and then saw-cutting them apart. Those receivers always sell, and for at least $750 each. I know this because I PM'ed them and asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ndArmored Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 There are 2 guys on GB who make a living welding TSMG receivers back togather and then saw-cutting them apart. Those receivers always sell, and for at least $750 each. I know this because I PM'ed them and asked. And then just like with the AR-15 lightning links or the M2 carbine kits, once enough of these non-kosher receivers start showing up "back in service", BATFE will raise the bar on what constitutes a properly-destroyed receiver. Eventually they'll have to look like loaves of sliced bread to pass muster. How easy would it be for ATF to just say, in soup nazi-like fashion, "No parts for you!" and simply decree that now a bolt is a gun, a grip mount is a gun, a sear spring is a gun.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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