Numbered Colt Thompson Butt Stocks

[docwjw1]

During their lives many Colt Thompsons have had their butt stocks switched. I have a police marked gun with a switched stock. This stock has a very professionally made brass plate marked H1653. I know of a similarly marked stock marked 4 digits away. I suspect this other stock may also be a switched one as both guns started with different original purchasers. There must certainly be more stocks similarly marked. Can anyone shed any light on this situation?

 

 

http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh526/docwjw/photo.jpg

Edited January 14, 2012 by docwjw1

[TD.]

Welcome to the Board.

 

Unfortunately, your picture did not post so I cannot see exactly what you are referring too.

 

The buttstocks for Colt Thompson's were not uniquely manufactured to a specific Thompson gun. Buttstocks were added to each Thompson when it was packed for shipping. There could easily be a mix up of parts, including the butt stocks, in a police department equipped with several Thompson guns. Generally speaking, there would be no way to tell which buttstock was the one that actually shipped from Auto-Ordnance. And it would not matter. A good fit would be much more important.

 

Other parts being mixed up may be easier to identify. For example, say a department had a 1921 Thompson, serial number 15X, and later acquired another 1921 Thompson, serial number 105XX. The three digit Thompson will most likely have the early or first generation 1921 actuator. The 5 digit Thompson will most likely have the later manufactured actuator. If the actuators were swapped, say during a cleaning session, both guns would still operate fine. However, it would be obvious to someone who understands some of the minutia involving the Colt Thompson's what happened. Other board members can cite more examples.

 

The real problem for Colt owners is when a police department owns both Colt Thompsons and WWII Thompson's. The later owners of the Colt Thompson's certainly suffer when some of parts are swapped in this situation.

[darrylta]

Notice the fine fit the butt plate has to the butt stock. If you remove the

butt plate, the butt stock and butt should have matching numbers.

The butt plate and butt stock almost never match the serial number of the Colt.

The furniture for the Colt guns was made and fitted by Remington Arms and

randomly mated to the Colt receivers.

 

GiJive has done some excellent research on butt stocks, Check out the pinned topics

and search function at the top of the forum page.

 

-Darryl

[docwjw1]

Welcome to the Board.

 

Unfortunately, your picture did not post so I cannot see exactly what you are referring too.

 

The buttstocks for Colt Thompson's were not uniquely manufactured to a specific Thompson gun. Buttstocks were added to each Thompson when it was packed for shipping. There could easily be a mix up of parts, including the butt stocks, in a police department equipped with several Thompson guns. Generally speaking, there would be no way to tell which buttstock was the one that actually shipped from Auto-Ordnance. And it would not matter. A good fit would be much more important.

 

Other parts being mixed up may be easier to identify. For example, say a department had a 1921 Thompson, serial number 15X, and later acquired another 1921 Thompson, serial number 105XX. The three digit Thompson will most likely have the early or first generation 1921 actuator. The 5 digit Thompson will most likely have the later manufactured actuator. If the actuators were swapped, say during a cleaning session, both guns would still operate fine. However, it would be obvious to someone who understands some of the minutia involving the Colt Thompson's what happened. Other board members can cite more examples.

 

The real problem for Colt owners is when a police department owns both Colt Thompsons and WWII Thompson's. The later owners of the Colt Thompson's certainly suffer when some of parts are swapped in this situation.

You ansewered before I was able to post the picture. I am interested in information on stocks with the same brass plates. I am curious about who probably purchase a group of guns and then desired to place the plates

[docwjw1]

Notice the fine fit the butt plate has to the butt stock. If you remove the

butt plate, the butt stock and butt should have matching numbers.

The butt plate and butt stock almost never match the serial number of the Colt.

The furniture for the Colt guns was made and fitted by Remington Arms and

randomly mated to the Colt receivers.

 

GiJive has done some excellent research on butt stocks, Check out the pinned topics

and search function at the top of the forum page.

 

-Darryl

Darryl, The stock and metal butt plate were numbered prior to fitting and finishing. They were then separated and after finishing were reassembled. The same system was practiced with Colt percussion arms and on early cartridge handguns. They are only considered assembly numbers and have no relation to serial numbers. The number on the loading gate of Colt single actions matches the assembly number under the trigger guard, not the serial number. WJW

[giantpanda4]

Can you tell us what PD had these plates put on? I have not seem a brass plate... just curious, but I believe that's the nature of your question.

[docwjw1]

Can you tell us what PD had these plates put on? I have not seem a brass plate... just curious, but I believe that's the nature of your question.

That is my question! Who put the 2 plates on that I am aware of? Mine is on a PD marked gun and I am certain it is not the original stock which was on the gun when it was purchased by the PD. The gun has had several owners since purchased by the PD. This is the stock that was on the gun when I acquired it years ago. The other marked stock I wrote has a different background and I believe it was not on the gun when purchased by the original purchaser. There have to be other similar plate out there which could offer the answer to my original question. WJW

[bug]

Welcome to the Board.

 

Unfortunately, your picture did not post so I cannot see exactly what you are referring too.

 

The buttstocks for Colt Thompson's were not uniquely manufactured to a specific Thompson gun. Buttstocks were added to each Thompson when it was packed for shipping. There could easily be a mix up of parts, including the butt stocks, in a police department equipped with several Thompson guns. Generally speaking, there would be no way to tell which buttstock was the one that actually shipped from Auto-Ordnance. And it would not matter. A good fit would be much more important.

 

Other parts being mixed up may be easier to identify. For example, say a department had a 1921 Thompson, serial number 15X, and later acquired another 1921 Thompson, serial number 105XX. The three digit Thompson will most likely have the early or first generation 1921 actuator. The 5 digit Thompson will most likely have the later manufactured actuator. If the actuators were swapped, say during a cleaning session, both guns would still operate fine. However, it would be obvious to someone who understands some of the minutia involving the Colt Thompson's what happened. Other board members can cite more examples.

 

The real problem for Colt owners is when a police department owns both Colt Thompsons and WWII Thompson's. The later owners of the Colt Thompson's certainly suffer when some of parts are swapped in this situation.

You ansewered before I was able to post the picture. I am interested in information on stocks with the same brass plates. I am curious about who probably purchase a group of guns and then desired to place the plates

 

 

Funny. I saw your post on another board and tried to answer but I didn't fully understand your question. As I get it now, you're wondering who did the plates. My guess would be a PD. On a long shot, if the number is an actual Colt SN it might lead to the organization that purchased the gun. Gordon's SN book might help. You mention a similar plate with a number a few digits away from this one. That leads me to believe that the number is just an item inventory number rather than a firearm serial number. It's worth a try though otherwise you'll have to hope someone recognizes the plate. Good luck.

 

Bob D

[aut-ord-co]

docwjw1,

 

I posted this Model '97 Winchester shotgun with a Swetnam shotgun hardcase in an earlier topic (Oct 2009) cited below.

 

http://www.machinegu...se&fromsearch=1

 

The brass plate looks similar and the number font looks to be the same also. When I posted these pictures, I reported that the gun came out of the Nassau County prison system. But I was in error. After digging out R. Cox's letter yesterday from whom I purchased the gun in 1979, he stated that the gun originated with the Nassau County Police Department, Hempstead, New York. Possibly the reason for the H.

I don't know if this answers your question. Perhaps dozens of PD's had these same plates made up for them.

 

.

[docwjw1]

Welcome to the Board.

 

Unfortunately, your picture did not post so I cannot see exactly what you are referring too.

 

The buttstocks for Colt Thompson's were not uniquely manufactured to a specific Thompson gun. Buttstocks were added to each Thompson when it was packed for shipping. There could easily be a mix up of parts, including the butt stocks, in a police department equipped with several Thompson guns. Generally speaking, there would be no way to tell which buttstock was the one that actually shipped from Auto-Ordnance. And it would not matter. A good fit would be much more important.

 

Other parts being mixed up may be easier to identify. For example, say a department had a 1921 Thompson, serial number 15X, and later acquired another 1921 Thompson, serial number 105XX. The three digit Thompson will most likely have the early or first generation 1921 actuator. The 5 digit Thompson will most likely have the later manufactured actuator. If the actuators were swapped, say during a cleaning session, both guns would still operate fine. However, it would be obvious to someone who understands some of the minutia involving the Colt Thompson's what happened. Other board members can cite more examples.

 

The real problem for Colt owners is when a police department owns both Colt Thompsons and WWII Thompson's. The later owners of the Colt Thompson's certainly suffer when some of parts are swapped in this situation.

You ansewered before I was able to post the picture. I am interested in information on stocks with the same brass plates. I am curious about who probably purchase a group of guns and then desired to place the plates

 

 

Funny. I saw your post on another board and tried to answer but I didn't fully understand your question. As I get it now, you're wondering who did the plates. My guess would be a PD. On a long shot, if the number is an actual Colt SN it might lead to the organization that purchased the gun. Gordon's SN book might help. You mention a similar plate with a number a few digits away from this one. That leads me to believe that the number is just an item inventory number rather than a firearm serial number. It's worth a try though otherwise you'll have to hope someone recognizes the plate. Good luck.

 

Bob D

Bob, I think you are finally understanding the question. The number on the stock is not the serial number of the gun. As far as can be determined, the PD who had my gun only had 2 Colt Thompsons and only marked the frames. The other gun I know about with an identical plate with a number 4 digits from mine did not begin life as a PD gun and never was one. Gordon recently stayed 2 nights with me and questions about these plates arose during his stay. There must be additional plates out there. Again, my question regards the who, what, when, why, and where about them. Gordon is responsible for the question I have posted on this board. I hope my question is clear now and I hope someone will be able and willing to provide some help. WJW

[TD.]

Doc,

I see what you are talking about now. That said, what I posted earlier is good information for those new members who are trying to learn about the Colt Thompsons.

 

I agree with Bug. It is an inventory tag; something not uncommon on police or government owned equipment. I believe the information aut-ord-co posted is very key to your search. The inventory tags are identical except yours is attached by small nails and aut-ord-co's is attached by small screws. The other key is the letter "H" prefix. I would guess these tags were custom ordered in bulk many years ago with an "H" specified to represent something significant to the owner. Other customers most likely received the same type of tags with the same font but with a different prefix, suffix, etc. Over the years nails gave way to screws, screws probably gave way to a stick-on backing some time later (again, just guessing).

 

I am going to make an assumption that your Thompson is in great condition. If so (and this entire Thread is just an exercise in guessing) I would assume the wood that was on it when it left the PD was also in great condition. The only flaw is the PD marking on the receiver and/or frame. Those markings are much more accepted today than in the past, say the Cox era. The dealer that has your Thompson with the great wood and PD marked receiver also has a great looking unmarked Thompson with an inventory tag nailed to the buttstock. Don't you just hate those two small holes! So the swap is made. Someone gets an excellent condition Nassau County Thompson (they had 10 Colt's according to Gordon) with no inventory tag on the buttstock and you get a Thompson that is marked twice. Years ago customers were not as interested in the history of these fine guns as they are today so who would know or ever suspect a swap had been made. And your Thompson probably sold for a few hundred dollars less.

 

I would ask Gordon if he has any current information on the where about of the 10 Nassau County PD Colt's. Contact each owner and see if an inventory tag is present. Don't worry about the inventory numbers being in order. You could have two desks, a Thompson gun, and a file cabinet in successive order. Remember, this is government property, not future collectibles. And the government is not operated in a manner that would make sense to someone on the outside.

 

Perhaps a Board member or two own a Nassau County PD Thompson or other gun and can chime in.

 

Let us know what you find out.

 

All good stuff!

[docwjw1]

docwjw1,

 

I posted this Model '97 Winchester shotgun with a Swetnam shotgun hardcase in an earlier topic (Oct 2009) cited below.

 

http://www.machinegu...se&fromsearch=1

 

The brass plate looks similar and the number font looks to be the same also. When I posted these pictures, I reported that the gun came out of the Nassau County prison system. But I was in error. After digging out R. Cox's letter yesterday from whom I purchased the gun in 1979, he stated that the gun originated with the Nassau County Police Department, Hempstead, New York. Possibly the reason for the H.

I don't know if this answers your question. Perhaps dozens of PD's had these same plates made up for them.

 

.

Thank you for your reply, You have provided the information to solve my puzzle! At this point, I would guess that Nassau Co. placed inventory plates on a whole host of items: desks. typewriters, file cabinets, and assorted Police Departments equipment. I hope that someone else out there can share information to support that thoiught. Thanks again for your help, WJW

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Doc,

The only flaw is the PD marking on the receiver and/or frame. Those markings are much more accepted today than in the past, say the Cox era.

 

How did you arrive at this unique evaluation about "acceptance"? Since most surviving Colt TSMG in the NFA registry were initially sold to a PD, collectors are in a command position to purchase the best condition of these examples which are sans the permanent PD markings on the receiver/frame. For the last 30+ years, the absence of a PD's moniker permanently emblazoned on a Colt TSMG did not confound the buyer/collector as to which PD was the original AOC customer. The advent of Cox's 1982 book along with the recent contributions of Herigstad and Richardson regarding serial numbers, only serve to further diminish value of examples so marked. compared to unmarked examples in similar condition. These PD markings have always been a scar on the Colt TSMG complexion , but for the last 30+ years, they are superfluous as well.

[docwjw1]

Doc,

The only flaw is the PD marking on the receiver and/or frame. Those markings are much more accepted today than in the past, say the Cox era.

 

How did you arrive at this unique evaluation about "acceptance"? Since most surviving Colt TSMG in the NFA registry were initially sold to a PD, collectors are in a command position to purchase the best condition of these examples which are sans the permanent PD markings on the receiver/frame. For the last 30+ years, the absence of a PD's moniker permanently emblazoned on a Colt TSMG did not confound the buyer/collector as to which PD was the original AOC customer. The advent of Cox's 1982 book along with the recent contributions of Herigstad and Richardson regarding serial numbers, only serve to further diminish value of examples so marked. compared to unmarked examples in similar condition. These PD markings have always been a scar on the Colt TSMG complexion , but for the last 30+ years, they are superfluous as well.

There are those who search for "Safe Queens" and those who search for firearms which may have served a useful purpose. While both may represent history, I for over 60+yrs. have been one of the latter. Be thankful there is something for everyone. One must realize though that we are just temporary custodians of our individual treasures and should respect and treat them well. WJW

[TD.]

It has been my observation that original owner markings on Colt Thompson's are not as much of a problem today as they were 30 plus years ago. I believe some buyers actually prefer the markings because they can then collect memorabilia from the police department, state police, prison, etc. It makes for a great display. Of course, it does depend on the markings. Some markings are just plain awful and do affect value.

 

Your observations may be different. And I am OK with that

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

There are those who search for "Safe Queens" and those who search for firearms which may have served a useful purpose. While both may represent history, I for over 60+yrs. have been one of the latter. Be thankful there is something for everyone. One must realize though that we are just temporary custodians of our individual treasures and should respect and treat them well. WJW

 

I defer to your collecting expertise that dates back to the time Truman was POTUS. However, a poor original finish on a LEO Colt TSMG doesn't necessarily suggest it served a "useful purpose" any more than a better preserved original finish means it spent its entire time in a vault. Some PD's were indifferent to their equipment while others took better care of theirs. A LEO permanently marking the metal on their Colt TSMG is neither indicative of a "safe queen" or one that served a "useful purpose."

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

It has been my observation that original owner markings on Colt Thompson's are not as much of a problem today as they were 30 plus years ago. I believe some buyers actually prefer the markings because they can then collect memorabilia from the police department, state police, prison, etc. It makes for a great display. Of course, it does depend on the markings. Some markings are just plain awful and do affect value.

 

Your observations may be different. And I am OK with that

 

And an owner of a Colt TSMG without said markings wanting to make a display using memorabilia from the original LEO couldn't just refer to the serial numbers that correspond to the original AOC buyer in the pages found in the works of Cox, Herigstad or Richardson? As you say, while I do not see the upside of these markings, regardless of their method of application, there are of course those that do.

[pcb911]

New to this forum.

 

Back in the early 70's, I worked part time as a shipping clerk. One day during a discussion about the shipping policy concerning Thompson wood, I was given the mission of checking all the Thompsons we had in stock. At that time we had 20 to 30 commerical Thompsons. We developed a list of guns and what numbers were on the wood. Our goal was to find the wood to match Thompsons that we knew of and where they might be. With a fading memory, I think that we found one set over time that we offered to a person that had bought a gun earlier. What was bad, was the wood was in bad condition compared to the gun it matched.

 

Later, we decided that the odds of finding matiching wood was pure luck. We even checked early military on the chance that the wood was swapped.