kanister Posted September 20, 2019 Report Share Posted September 20, 2019 (edited) ... the 4UT44 stamps as well - which I believe is pretty well accepted as a German acceptance stamp (although I haven't seen anything definitive on that either)?Mistake is here: 4UT was not a German stamp but an Italian one.The 4 Ufficio Tecnico (or 4th Tecnical Office) was an Italian office established before the September '43 surrender and was the heir of the old IVU.After Germans seized every Italian facility the 4UT office inspected the guns addressed both to Germans and Italians. Edited September 20, 2019 by kanister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted September 20, 2019 Report Share Posted September 20, 2019 (edited) The 4UT stamping is definitely Italian its also on some handguns if the era. In the collectors world they bring more money but i dont know for sure why. When the Italians flipped sides in 43 the Germans in Italy disarmed the Italian forces and collected their weapons. The M1891s were ditched but the beretta smg were dispersed among the German forces. My gun was for sure picked up in France by an American paratrooper so these guns went everywhere. I have read where the beretta factory in northern Italy remained in axis control and continued to mfg guns until the end of the war for the German forces. Gwick i hope you can dig up some info from beretta it would be nice to know what the history is behind these markings and different mfg dates. The Germans really coveted these smgs even over their own equipment there must be some info out there. Edited September 20, 2019 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted September 20, 2019 Report Share Posted September 20, 2019 They bring more money because they are german ww2 issued guns. a 4ut handgun will bring double/triple without it they are just a commercial sale gun with no war time history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 20, 2019 Report Share Posted September 20, 2019 They bring more money because they are german ww2 issued guns. a 4ut handgun will bring double/triple without it they are just a commercial sale gun with no war time history The only reason they bring more money is only the ignorance of the collectors that think that the 4UT is a German mark.If you look at the Beretta Mod. 1934 pistols also the commercial Geco bring more money, but they are common commercial guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2019 (edited) Thanks for the info! There is certainly a dearth of information regarding German/Italian WWII weapons - mostly tribal knowledge in forums (hence the reason I started posting ). I had a similar situation with a Luger that was brought back at the same time. Fortunately, a Luger expert lived near me at the time that I met through a forum and gave me some great info. With regard to the 4UT44, there is little information and what is available makes vague reference to German proof marks upon import/acceptance. The great info you gave me sends me down a different path. Hopefully Beretta will help, although I am hopeful, am not confident. I'll do some additional searches for Italian marks and see what I can dig up. WaA numbers have also been mentioned in a number of places, however, don't know how all of it ties together as of yet and don't believe there is a WaA. If I understood the supply chain, I assume the marks would make more sense. As I mentioned briefly above, I know it was picked up in 1 of 3 places, however, how it got there is another story (Kanister's point). If I had to guess, I believe it was acquired in Germany or Czechoslovakia, but as mentioned, that's not uncommon. He worked motor pool, so could carry things with him easily. The interesting things are certainly where he picked it up, the stock repair with the correct serial number across the crack and the additional mark that I have not been able to find (maybe not interesting to everyone, but I find them curious). Something else interesting, and I know nothing about, one collector took a look at it and said there were blood marks (tiny rust pits caused by blood vs. water). Whether he was full of shit or not, I don't know. He used that to qualify that the gun was used in the war - I didn't dispute it. Thanks again for your info and time! Edited September 20, 2019 by GWick123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 20, 2019 Report Share Posted September 20, 2019 ...and the additional mark that I have not been able to find (maybe not interesting to everyone, but I find them curious).Take a look at il91.it scrool the left window till "Marchi" and then "Legni". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2019 (edited) Thanks, interesting stuff (although I couldn't read much). Also tried to find a contact email without luck. There was a contact in one of the links for another person - I did email them. A couple kinda close, but not a match. Edited September 20, 2019 by GWick123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Kanister, I caught the light just right looking at the mark and am pretty sure it says "GA". I couldn't find anything referencing that mark. I did find that GA represented Hirsch, Kupferu. Messingwerk AG Finow, however, don't know how that would tie in. It was not in the list you referenced above either. Thoughts? Other potential sources? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Another functional question - there is a little round access port on the butt plate and a hole in the stock - what went into that hole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Another functional question - there is a little round access port on the butt plate and a hole in the stock - what went into that hole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) Edited September 21, 2019 by kanister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Thanks for the pic Kanister - I could have guessed that, but figured it would be something else. Guess sometimes the most obvious! Definitely tight fit for everything but the rod. Continuing the research, it was obviously made in 1943 (fluted 38/42) and by most accounts exported to the German army due to the 4UT44 stamp. "After occupation through the Germans and Mussolini 1943, Beretta began immediately to deliver weapons for the new armies. Also a lot of Beretta 1935 for the German Wehrmacht. The theory says, that almost all models with the "4/UT" proof mark were delivered to the Germans." Quote from Ian @ forgottenweapons.com I am assuming this meant all weapons and not just the 1935. Still looking for the GA stamp. Hopefully one of my emails bares fruit (Beretta, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 I am sorry for Ian of Forgottenweapons because he spoke very well about a book of mine but I can't agree with him about his statement about the 4UT mark.All guns produced in Italy between September 1943 and April 1945 were inspected by Italian inspectors (like 4UT but also Brescia proof mark and others), then the Germans established to whom these guns had to be delivered, both German or Italian army.Only Beretta guns inspected by Germans had the mark WaA162: German established also the quality and quantity of guns to be produced allotting to each factory the necessary quantity of raw materials. I like very much the Beretta Mod 34 and 35, but this is not the right place to speak about them: this is my mod.34 WaA162 the day I bought it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Well he does say "Theory". Seems there are a lot of folks that subscribe to that theory, wrong or right. There was also a P38 that came back, my brother has that one. One other mark that looks familiar from the book (is the book yours?), is an 8 and a circled F on the side of the barrel. I did see a similar mark in the book, but seemed to be on different types of weapons. No WaA marks that I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 Germans used a lot of guns without marking them or "accepting" them. Toward the end of the war the inspectors were on the production line. Not many markings on MP3008's and like guns. The 4Ut markings add zero value to the guns sold recently here at auction. 38/42's are the most collectible of the series (in the US) with the fluted barrel. It's apparent 2-5 guys got into a bidding war and the last of them seem to be continuing it. After 2-3 high sales somehow it then becomes norm? The market here is small enough I know of one guy who "created " a market out of one gun that continues to this day and he will bid them up in any auction to hold them up there. Sort of a sole Hunt brother. Not sure what happens when he's gone? Admittedly it's fascinating to watch and I hope I can cash mine out one day before the crash to below 40K! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 (edited) Johnsonmg41, for that price, I'll part with mine w/o question .... Know anybody that wants one, I'll save them the premium Maybe need to stick it in an auction?!? Edited September 22, 2019 by GWick123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 (edited) I posted the link in this thread of one selling for over $50k and i have no idea how that happened. If could get that price for mine i would sell it too but all the others (not many) that i have seen sold were $15k or under. The 38a pricing is about $15k-$18k out there and that gun i would like to have in my collection but they do not come up for sale too often. GWick your 38/42 has all the markings including the fluted barrel it just might get a high price at auction who knows.I posted pics of my 38/42 Beretta on the forum earlier this year after i picked it up from the seller. Edited September 22, 2019 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 Petroleum, I looked back at your post, nice gun! Looks like its in great shape! Like the way they look when they're cleaned up. Have not done that yet, seems like there's a debate over what's better and more valuable, so I left it as is but have been tempted. Has always been cleaned and oiled (mechanicals), but stock is likely as it was when it came back. Has not been shot in 50+ years, possibly since it came back. Grandfather brought it back and it's always been in storage. Got it stamped a few year ago and haven't ventured out to shoot it yet. I did see the one that sold through Rock Island Auctions, and it was almost identical to mine (38/42 fluted, 4UT44, serial 27XX vs. mine 35XX). So almost identical with the exception that I believe, from pics and description, that mine is in better condition. I was surprised by the number and and did reach out and confirm the sale when I started down this path. Assuming it's what JohnsonIMG41 above was talking about. As I said, for that price or anywhere close, I am certainly a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 In researching yours/mine the mark CN on the top is referred to in International Armament as being issued to Camicie Nere, Mussolini's black shirt troops. Mine has a CD in the same spot with but I can't find any information on that. Is your bolt matching numbers, stamped or electropenciled?These things were sold anywhere and everywhere according to my reference books. Good grief, I just saw a broad arrow on my end cap! My stock has the UT markings, but is not numbered and the butt plate seems to be one more commonly shown in references that comes over the top, but has no cleaning rod compartment. The gun also has an A prefix with a matching un-messed with barrel. It shows several other markings on the gun such as an "F" a tiny M and another mark on the front of the magazine housing. All good info, but I think you would need 50 more samples to draw any conclusions? According to one book it's possible that one of these guns or a 38A may have been used to shoot Mussolini? Maybe the 57K gun was rumored to have been used? LOL RIA called the other day looking for consignments and I threw out a few "what if" questions and what I gather was that if you send them a lot, over 100K, they would negotiate reduction or elimination of the sellers fee of 20%. They wouldn't commit to a dollar number but I kept increasing it over 60K on a couple guns and the answer was still no, so I'm extrapolating. If the 57K gun was consigned the seller may have netted 38,.7K. Certainly not chump change, but the odds of repeating seem slim to me? Of course there's no way of confirming whether or not they actually collected a 57K check? Are these places mailing 1099's......someone please chime in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 According to one book it's possible that one of these guns or a 38A may have been used to shoot Mussolini? Maybe the 57K gun was rumored to have been used? LOLOfficial tale tells us that Mussolini was executed with a MAS 38 that today is kept in a museum in Tirana (Albania). This was used because the killer had a new Thompson that had not been cleared of the grease and so did not shoot. Only property mark on MAB were the ones of the PAI (Polizia Africa Italiana) and of the "Pubblica Sicurezza" (Police), so your CN can't be referred to Camicie Nere, that had no property mark. CN and CD are perhaps production inspector's marks: can you show some picture of these marks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 Post number 4 image #5 of Gwick123's gun. The CN is just above the serial number. The reference was from International Armament. There were a few other markings referenced in the paragraph in the book to other groups. Also states for the German guns that they would be usually be marked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 (edited) I looked at your pics: if the CN mark you refer is this it's only part of the serial: you must read CN 3551. Edited September 22, 2019 by kanister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 Butt plate comes slightly over the top and looks like the normal one in pics with the access hole for the cleaning rod. Has the arrow on the end cap as well. There is an 8 with a F in a circle in front of the magazine housing. Where is the serial on the bolt? I haven't taken it apart, so only see where the chamber is open. Have serial numbers (that can be seen) on the stock, behind the chamber (below the CN) and in front of the chamber (before the barrel and on top of where the F mark is). That's pretty much it (as well as described above). OK, I need to start a rumor When I briefly talked to RIA, they said it was in fact sold for 57K - didn't ask whether they got the check. I believe that's the last auctioned gun (at least from what I have found). Curious how they figure $100K - based upon their estimates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 I looked at your pics: if the CN mark you refer is this it's only part of the serial: you must read CN 3551.No,I don't think it's not part of the serial number, too far away, different size and font and mine has an "A" prefix on the serial number, same size as the numbers. Having all that as part of the serial number is not likely since you never have two prefixes. I'm not inferring the book is correct, but it's certainly something to explore? GWick123, the bolt is numbered back on the body, you would have to take off the end cap, spring, etc. and pull it out to see the numbering. The estimate on the RIA gun was 14-22.5, but I know they don't have any staff familiar with MG's. Been there many times, had parts missing that were attached to other auctions, etc. They don't know much about MG's but they are pretty good at making cash! I'm responsible for getting them to change the 08/15 in the last auction to transferable from dealer sample, hoping I could get a deal on it, but the notice went out to everyone and it sold for more than I was willing to spend. They and the owner made a lot more money, I'm not sure I even got a thank you? That's just kind of how it goes, it's mostly a numbers game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 Beretta started using for serial number a letter and four digit (A0001 to A9999) till Z999.Then restarted with AA and four digit, then AB, AC, ... CD,..CN,...I have an Egyptian 38A/44 of the year 1957 with the serial LP 0286.Who says other things don't say about he is speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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