dutigaf Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 im not a regular poster on the board, but have always been a life long Thompson fan... after many years of drooling on heckinohio's tommy's i finally took the plunge and dove into building a semi version that is true to the original.... only exception is that barrel length as im not quite ready to do the SBR. did however take and shorten the barrel back down as much as you could and still keep everyone happy. im not real sure about the rules and stuff here, but if anyone wants to see this build, all you have to do is sign in and check out the complete build thread with pix and test video is at this link: http://www.beltfedshooters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3089 if its a problem or against any rules of the site just delete it or let me know. im pretty proud of this build and just wanted to share it in case someone else wants to do it as well. it can be done. sdk1968 aka dutigaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) I'm not aware of any rules that you would be required to delete your post, but I just registered on that site to view your thread. Don't know about the legalities, but your build looks good. If you can, why not post some PICS/Video here, for others to see? Edited July 1, 2008 by LIONHART Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elbow Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) Creative and very original. But just how legal is it to re-weld a FA receiver back to a working piece? I was always under the assumption that you have to have a particular license. I could be wrong. Hopefully you have one. But if you did have one you should be able to SBR it..Right??? Added http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/Topomast/uppercompleted.jpg Edited July 1, 2008 by Elbow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kruuth Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 I'm not an expert on the laws here, but it looks as though you could just drop in a F/A bolt into there and it goes back to being full auto, which is a big no-no. Did you modify the receiver so that this can't happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) I would think the builder had the foresight to make modifications to the receiver which would prevent adding a FA bolt, but I'm just assuming. I think I read somewhere that a restricter bar was going to be added, which is something that the SA UZI's have. Perhaps Dutigaf can tell us more of what's been done. Edited July 1, 2008 by LIONHART Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromebolt Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Once a machine gun always a machine gun comes to mind here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) I think the builder is on the right track, though I would recommend using a virgin receiver, either from Richardson, or Philadelphia Ordnance. I would also recommend reducing the interior walls of the receiver so an unmodified TSMG bolt wouldn't slip right into place. The only approved original height receiver that I know of is that by SA-Ordnance/Tim Polston. However, that is not to say it couldn't be done again from someone else, using a different sytem, and some have even stated that an original height receiver wouldn't be approved by the ATF, and one has. ETA: IMA offer's a few display gun's with remanufactured re-welded receiver's that, according to them, are ATF approved. The action's work somewhat, but obviously can't chamber a round. I'm not aware of the legal aspects of home built gun's, but I would again suggest using a different receiver to rebuild your gun, and make it so that it can't accept an unmodified TSMG bolt. At the very least, weld in some steel plate's into your present receiver, and thin the side's of your bolt down. FWIW.... Edited July 1, 2008 by LIONHART Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 dutigaf Very interesting, detailed post on how you did your conversion. Amazing that you were able to do this kind of massive rework to a parts kit without the use of a mill or a lathe. You seem quite confident that what you have here will fly with BATF as far as NFA laws are concerned, can you elaborate. Are you planning on getting formal approval from BATF? For anyone here who didn't want to take the time to register on BeltfedShooters.com in order to view the thread...it's well worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutigaf Posted July 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) dutigaf Very interesting, detailed post on how you did your conversion. Amazing that you were able to do this kind of massive rework to a parts kit without the use of a mill or a lathe. You seem quite confident that what you have here will fly with BATF as far as NFA laws are concerned, can you elaborate. Are you planning on getting formal approval from BATF? For anyone here who didn't want to take the time to register on BeltfedShooters.com in order to view the thread...it's well worth it. Guys, thanks to all for your comments! and thank you again for being patient and not just flaming me to death instantly :-) some sites are not new member friendly... Lancer is correct. the receiver was built around "denial/blocking pins" as required and these were installed in the front stub first before any type of rewelding was done. you absolutely do not want to do anything on on building a original diameter receiver without installing the blocking rail first! ok to some of the questions: sumbission yes my intentions are to submit this and ive got someone who has submitted weapons and gotten approvals in the past to help me with the paper work because im not a "paper guru" im wanting to test it some more first. home building you dont have to have a license to do home builds as long as your not selling them and meet all the 922r requirements. yep this meets ALL the 922r stuff. barrel winds up being just over 16". its all US parts. it has the floating pin and positive disconnecter. also has a working safety (not required) capacity this kind of depends on where you live.... im guessing that this build would be a "no-go" in kommiefornia for sure. Richardson & Phila ord: ive read ALOT of Mr Richardson's stuff but just wanted to go a different route than his set up. Phila Ord: im not someone who is a machinist by trade and have no mill as Lancer mentioned so their fine receiver is only on my display wall hanger.... just too much work to hollow all that out with my Rotozip and dremel. why i didnt post pix here to start with? wasnt sure of the rules or how the "bigboys" who can afford the FA versions would take to a young fella who cant afford to play in their game for more than a few minutes at a time "redid" one of the most popular guns in the world. and the build was posted in complete form at beltfedshooters.com & weaponsguild.com because those are my "homesites" and i promised those guys it would host there.. the pix are all there and so are the 2 short test vids that my wife did for me before the storms.... the gun now has about 125 rounds thru it and id like to get about 1K thru it before trying to get it approved that way if anything would pop up after some hard use it can be fixed and not have any surprises at the tech branch. will add a couple of shots of it here and again if im breaking any rules or such just delete it off and let me know. the homebuilding community has always been told that the Tommy just couldnt be done or wasnt affordable to do .....blah blah and the semi was out there but it just doesnt look right compared with the original. my goal was to get this thing looking as close as possible to factory. if it gets an approval letter then maybe i can go for the SBR and make it externally identical to the original. sean http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/dutigaf/Thompson%20build/DSC01175.jpg http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/dutigaf/Thompson%20build/DSC01179.jpg http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/dutigaf/Thompson%20build/DSC01177.jpg http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/dutigaf/Thompson%20build/almostdone.jpg Edited July 1, 2008 by dutigaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elbow Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 dutigaf Out of curiosity, how did you end up finishing the barrel and comp with out the threads? Must of been a big gap between barrel and comp. Sleeve it?? I did mine by using the threads I cut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Why i didnt post pix here to start with? wasnt sure of the rules or how the "bigboys" who can afford the FA versions would take to a young fella who cant afford to play in their game for more than a few minutes at a time "redid" one of the most popular guns in the world. There are all types of Thompson folks here, from collectors to semi-auto folks. Were not a stuffy bunch. Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilOhio Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Sean, You are to be commended for your creativity and determination. This is a big undertaking, especially with a minimum of (sub)basic tools. You have a lot of work ahead of you, if you go for the ATF approval. And you will probably have to make some significant changes in the design, unless you are lucky enough to hit it right the first time. Few are. I very strongly suggest that before you go much further you should do a little research on the new generation of small benchtop Chinese mini-milling machines, often referred to as the X2 family. I got mine new last year from the Homier travelling sales people for $400. Some charge over $500 for the same thing. Get a few basic cutters and learn how to use the thing. It will save you incalculable hours of crude hand work and give you a more professional receiver...and everything else. I assume you already know how to weld, or you would not have gotten this far. And you will soon need (perhaps already) at least a small benchtop metal lathe and some basic cutters. It should be a little larger and stronger than the Sherline types; at least a 6" swing and length between centers of around 18" to 24". If you don't already know how to use one, anybody with your obvious skills will pick it up almost instantly. You will be amazed at how you will turn loose your own mind when it has the basic tools to convert ideas into parts with reasonably good dimensional control...so they work. If you think all of this is already addicting, wait until you really get off the ground. Our Recon Bob, who owns Philadelphia Ordnance, can tell you about it; you eventually have to have a CNC machining center that fills half a building. That can wait until after the first million in profit, of course. Good luck on all this, and keep us posted on what's happening. As Lionhart says, this is not a stuffy bunch, and everybody is interested in new, creative things involving the Thompson, full or semi-auto. Continue to be very cautious on the re-welding of kit pieces; you are walking on eggs right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutigaf Posted July 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 wow you guys are fast to get reply's!! im not sure how to multi quote on this board set up so i'll just c&P for a few of these.. ELBOW: yeah i put a thin sleeve on the barrel, pinned the compensator and then welded in place to keep the goberment happy.. on barrel extensions they have to be welded... no plug welds, no thread only. LionHart: thanks. ive been a member here for a couple of years... just didnt post as i didnt have my own FA and lots of times the "homebuilder" is frowned upon by the FA community. Philohio: nice info and im actually looking into a smaller mill. the story behind it is a bit off topic but.... ive been a home builder for quite a while. lots of builds and conversions, but unlike some of my friends who are machinists by trade im the "garage builder" of the bunch and have tried to keep my builds to where a regular guy could do them. and yes while this build was done completely with rotozip,dremel, grinder, welder and a few "burr bits" it would have been alot easier with a mill. my pals are all on me to start offering the base conversion of the bolt and lowers which im still kicking around. ive requested and got lots of info from the goberment boys and have been sticking with everything exactly as they ask...... we all know this can be changed by them at any moment. so ive avoided alot of the arguments about whats required, ive done everything they have required on paper and made available. the conversion uses things that have all been approved on other builds and conversions and tested plenty and then ive just sorted out what would work for the spaces of the Tommy. guess ive got a few "new tricks" in some of my approach, but the denial/blocking rails are larger than the approved ones in several other approved builds out there being commercially sold right now, and the FCG is a proven SA only set up. the FA bolt will not fit. main thing to remember is that while its perfect in all the levers and numbers on the outside.... it operates nothing like the original on the inside... im enjoying answering the questions on this and so far this has been a nice experience on this board. anybody got anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilOhio Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Dutigaf, Good. Your thinking is on top of this. I'm sure just about everybody here is finding this very interesting. It sounds like you are thinking along the same lines as people who have developed such things as the semi-auto Stens, etc. You are thinking about selling to do-it-yourselfers some of the home conversion parts they will most likely be unable to make for themselves. You can make this stuff with a basic small mill and lathe, and in good quality, if you get started on the learning process now. Time will be burned up waiting for replies and approvals, etc. During that time you can learn to use this stuff at an adequate skill level. There's no need for you to pay a bundle for somebody else to make the parts. And you can write off the tools if you establish a small business at the outset. If you have a nearby community college, or somebody teaching adult education classes, maybe you can get some formal instruction on the tools. Or perhaps a buddy with mill and lathe can help. Or you can teach yourself with books and things, and by just...well...breaking stuff. ...which can be expensive. But however you do it, go for it. There is at least a small market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) Dutigaf, I'm sure there would be quite a number of folks that would be interested in building one of these rifle's, should you get ATF approval, and offer a few services of your own to help them along. Be sure to keep us updated. Edited July 1, 2008 by LIONHART Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutigaf Posted July 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 PhilOhio, thanks for what i think was a compliment..... remember im just a redneck, so if you use the old "high brow" humor it goes over my head..... lol lets back up for a minute: im not out to take anyone for a ride or make a living off of this. ive got what i was after.... one for me that works. in the process found out that this is not nearly as hard as some of the other conversions ive done and why not get some of those 35,000 tommy parts kits out there some use? im getting the feeling that you dont have much faith in the homebuilt side of the hobby? granted there are a lot of people who dont get the stuff built. or cant get it to run afterwards.... (early sten kits are known for this) im very much into the home built scene not just on this but just about anything that catches my intrest. there are plenty of working conversions out there, but it does take more than just a throw together AK/AR series of rifle. it takes ALOT more time and money. but in the end you have something you can be proud of and the satisfaction that yes you did do that. ive never ever walked away from a build until it was reliable. ive got "non completetion" phobia's. if you dont have enough addictions and would like to look at some other conversions ive got id be more than happy to chat ya about them. im really having a good time chatting with you guys in general here, its been nice. sdk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilOhio Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Dutigaf, All was intended as compliments. Lots of people here and elsewhere are interested in this sort of thing, but few have the skills to tackle it (or realize that they do) and the determination to follow it through to the bitter end. So anything you, or anybody else with an idea like this, can do to make it easier for them improves the chances of such projects getting done. ...such as all the machined semi-auto Sten parts, etc. So I don't know where you get the idea that people here have no faith in the homebuilt side of the hobby. If you spend any time here, you will find a whole lot of innovative thinking on this board. Lots of members come up with neat little things relating to Thompsons because there's nobody else to do it. It looks to me like this has become a focal point for Thompson hobbyists and collectors. So you're in the right place, even if it may not look like that every single day of the year. And a lot of people read your posts with interest, even if few feel qualified to, or choose to comment. Very few people who are into this stuff are out to making a living from it. They find it fun, and get a kick out of helping other folks share their/our fun. That's the nature of this board, of course. This kind of goal is laudible enough, I think, and it's harmless as long as it is legit. Nobody is going to spend a year and a lot of money so he can stick up a bank with a hand-built semi-auto Thompson...unless he's headed for the clown locker anyway. Just out of curiosity, where did you find the 35,000 figure on the number of TSMG kits out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutigaf Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) PhilOhio. thanks for stickin with the conversation and explaining that to me. i'll return the favor... after all im just getting the feel of how you guys post,speak & so on on this board. we are both in ohio, but im guessing your from farther north? back to the post: the homebuilder community and semi builders in general get "knocked around" a pretty good bit and a lot of times we actually get looked down on cause most of us just cant afford to play with the full-auto crowd... heard many times that im a "full-auto impostor" ... so of course im a bit careful when treading into a new forum. im very lucky to have lots of friends who own FA stuff and get to shoot quite abit that way.... bring ammo, carry,set up, tear down,clean and usually you can shoot about anything you can imagine. innovative thinking is what its all about, and im not one of those people who works with a cloak around me cause im afraid of someone seeing how it was done... if that was the case there would have been no pictures in that build thread. i do usually keep a cloak around to hide my ugly welding until after its made "decent looking" lmao your right, got into this hobby as a way to stay busy between my daughters sports seasons and now its a full on "addiction".... my first build was a semi Soumi. that should say it all right there. 35K is the number that 1 importer brought in 4 years ago... im told that this is the stash that the SG kits come from, but couldnt prove it. all i can tell you is that all 7 sets ive got are nearly identical in cut method and placement, condition, quality, park/blue/paint, stain on wood, barrel wear and so on... im sure there are way more than this total, as ive got a friend in Albania who was working for an exporter, he sent me pictures of him cutting them up with a torch.... it would break your heart. just huge racks of them in a room and then.. them taking the torch to them. ive already came across a couple of even better mods to do so that there will be a bolt hold open feature to make the drum easy to put on for 1 person with just 2 hands... hoping to get that done before the weekend and will drop a pic of the mod into the thread if anyone is interested. positive that this can be done without ruining my "blue job" sean Edited July 2, 2008 by dutigaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilOhio Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Dutigaf, Yes, I'm up in the northwest Toledo-Detroit corridor. I don't think many here have much of a semi-full bias, although those with one or the other will naturally show more interest in their particular area, unless they own both Thompson types. Innovation and creativity, Thompsonwise, will interest anybody here. If it's new and neat, we want to know. Is full-auto cost beginning to show up as a snobbery factor, dividing registered and semi Thompson people and other gun folks? I hope not, but do worry about that. My full auto Thompson (yes, only one) cost me about half what Jon Ciener wants for his deluxe "all" .22 conversion kit. I mean, the one that might occasionally work, sorta'. So I'm not one of the high rollers. And not all Tommy shooters are in the bucks. Remember, there are those willing to eat cat food to be able to buy and shoot Tommy. Some of it ain't even so bad. No new face should worry about joining this forum. The only requirements should be interest and civility. And we have some great minds here who follow the board but don't like to post much, or can't hack at a keyboard so well. Lurking mode is O.K., but I say, who cares about grammar or style? It's about fun. Just do it...being nice. Sure wish I had seven TSMG kits stashed away, but I'd have to cut way down on the cat food budget to afford it, and my cat would be chewing my toes while I'm asleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutigaf Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 yeah your WAY north. lol im on the Ohio,KY,WV tri state border.... right next to marshall university.. wow this thread has got a lot of views!! which is great for your site and the hobby. see if i'd have listened to my old buddy and bought that FA Tommy in the 80's it would have been dirt cheap... but being young and dumb then, thought man thats a lot of money for one of those....... ugh to be a stupid kid again. well im down to 5 Tommy kits stashed away now. lol but since im always building kits of some sort, pounded them in over the last couple of years. the semi building hobby has changed alot and will continue to over the next year. we are having to get a lot more "creative" with our builds as the good kits that are cheap are drying up very quickly and it only leaves these really expensive ones, shich in turn knocks a lot of people out of the hobby. but if you look at it with this build: you realy didnt need a lot of extra stuff like most of the kit builds. so maybe it washes out even in the end??? thats what im telling myself. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
booger hooker Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 dutigaf I'm glad you posted your Thompson semi build over here as it's a natural fit for this site. I've looked thru it and am amazed at your ingenuity in building with common tools your Thompson, as well as all the other kits you've converted in the past, and gives me hope that I will be able to do something with one of the '28 Thompson kits I have sitting around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutigaf Posted July 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 Thanks BH and good to see you again! here is a quick update and new short wobbly video.... ;D Abby my 7yr old decided she could video the last run of the day in the tommy.. she made sure she kept the gun in the picture. made a few improvements in the cycle as i thought it was too slow...and as you can see it gained a good bit of speed. it now has 325 rnds thru it. http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/dutigaf/Thompson%20build/th_tommytestwithAbby.jpg went back and polished up everything and smoothed out the action and double checked all of my welds for the alphabet boys and compared to the letters they put out and all the paperwork.... stripped it all out reblued it and oiled it up and put some thru it... and the short vid is the last few rounds before putting it up till the other brands of amo get here. sdk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 (edited) the homebuilder community and semi builders in general get "knocked around" a pretty good bit and a lot of times we actually get looked down on cause most of us just cant afford to play with the full-auto crowd... heard many times that im a "full-auto impostor" ... I have the utmost respect for semi owners, and even more respect for someone who can design one. Unfortunately, you are correct about full-auto prices- they have put the average Joe at a disadvantage to own one. The other major hurdle are state and local laws. Just my $.02 worth! :slap: Norm Edited July 5, 2008 by Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted July 5, 2008 Report Share Posted July 5, 2008 And I'm sure your gun would out perform a KARH everytime too! Outstanding job Sean! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anticus Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 I'm over on Weapons Guild too. Great site !! Learning lots on semi builds. Dutigaf, well done on your Thompson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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