Thompson Night Ops 5-Cell XX Magazine Pouch - Navy?

[Waffen Und Bier]

There is a pic in AT II of a Tommy on a Norton with a locally made TSMG mount. And who can forget the pic Auto Ord uses of the Tommy riding on his Brit single with a TSMG. Someone made a "King of the badasses" poster of it on line. As far as off topic.....machine guns, motorcycles, militaria, military vehicles, moon shot, magazine pouches, memorabilia, mammories, manned flight, moonshine (and all manner of whiskey and real beer), muscle cars, machining (making things in general),.....all related (and manly interests).

 

And yes, I have been professionally diagnosed with....ooh, look a squirrel!

Edited May 16, 2014 by Waffen Und Bier

[Kilroy]

I think I read once upon a time that Marine raiders dyed some of their web gear black.

I think I misspoke. I don't think it was the Marine Raiders (though they were the first to use camo in the pacific) I think it was the First Special Serivce Force also known as the devils brigade or by the Germans as the 'Black Devils of Anzio'. These guys were some of the first special ops guys that trained to destroy dams in Norway but when that was unfeasible they were sent to Alaska for the invasion of Kiska then to Italy. I remember reading that they would dye equipment black and paint themselves black then infiltrate German positions during the night to kill germans and leave a 'calling card' on the body with a drawing of their patch on it with a message that loosely translat to 'the worst has yet to come'.

[jim c 351]

And yes, I have been professionally diagnosed with....ooh, look a squirrel!

 

Waffen,

I don't believe that you are afflicted with the above disorder, You are just a natural born squirrel hunter.

Jim C

[SocietyBrandHatCo]

I think I might be able to shed some light on these pouches. I believe what we're looking at here are pouches which have been dyed by US Air Force Air Policemen.

 

When the Air Force became a separate branch (formerly the US Army Air Force) in 1947 they were incredibly eager to distinguish themselves as being their own branch. As a result, they quickly adopted the color blue for almost everything to replace the olive drab of their old Army Air Force days. They had blue jeeps, blue weapons carriers, blue helmets, blue flight suits, even blue duffel bags and blue footlockers. They continued the "blue madness" until they realized airmen who had been shot down over Korea were having a difficult time evading capture wearing bright blue flight suits, which is why in the mid-1950s the Air Force adopted sage green (but still different than Army olive drab; that was very important for the USAF).

 

The first Air Police units were established in 1948, and in keeping with the ideology of the rest of the Air Force, went about looking for a way to distinguish themselves from their Army Military Police counterparts. This was a bit difficult, for although the Air Force adopted a new blue service uniform in 1948, they didn't fully switch over to the new Air Force blues until 1952. So both Army soldiers and some Air Force airmen were wearing the same uniforms for nearly 5 years. This is why Air Policemen were issued arm brassards which read "Air Police." They also started dying their web gear dark blue to further differentiate themselves.

 

I collect Air Force militaria in the time periods 1947-1965 and personally have pistol belts, cartridge belts, carbine pouches, first aid pouches, .45 pouches, and even a duffel bag which all started life in either light olive drab #3 (khaki) or dark olive drab #7 (green) but all wound up being dyed dark blue by zealous airmen. I have several photos of Air Policemen wearing dark blue web gear. In fact, the practice of wearing dyed blue web gear continued until the Dept. of Defense adopted the M56 pattern gear for all services and began issue in the late 1950s.

 

Although I've yet to personally own a Thompson pouch which had been dyed blue, I'm confident this is what you have here. Unfortunately it's not a one of a kind Marine Raider item. I believe dealers list them as such to drive up the cost, or simply because they don't know any better. Blue dyed gear like this isn't necessarily easy to find, but it's also not necessarily very valuable, and it usually brings prices slightly below the cost of an undyed piece of the same gear. I suppose this is simply because there aren't too many of us collecting this early USAF gear. Hopefully you didn't overpay.

 

When I have a chance I'll try to post some pics of 1950s Air Poliemen wearing blue web gear.

Edited August 4, 2014 by SocietyBrandHatCo

[SocietyBrandHatCo]

This is a photo of two Air Policemen in the late 1950s. As you can see, they wear sage green fatigues, and even though a black and white photo, you can see how incredibly dark their web gear is. That's because it has been dyed blue. Notice the dyed .45 pouch worn by the Air Policemen on the right is a WWI vintage M1918 pattern pouch. These particular pouches are usually a very light mustard khaki, which also made them easier to dye than the post-WWII M1923 .45 pouches which were all dark olive drab #7 (green).

[jim c 351]

HBSC,

Very interesting.

Please do not rest until you can post a pic of an Air Policeman holding a Thompson and wearing a blue mag pouch.

If you can do that then you will get the contributor of the month award.

Thanks.

Jim C

[Waffen Und Bier]

By the 1960's Air Police were back to green stuff as evidenced by the green rubberized AR15 20 round mag pouches.

[Rogue]

Does any one know when the WW2 cell pouches (5 cell & 3 cell), the single drum pouch, and spare magazine pouches

like the one Capt. Miller was carrying in Saving Private Ryan (US & British types) were actually issued?

[jim c 351]

Rogue,

Just a guess, probably about 1928 for the drum pouch and 5X20 pouch and 1941/42 for the 3X30 pouch and the Tom Hanks 6X30 pouch.

If I'm off by a year or so ,I'll give you a full refund.

Jim C

[ron_brock]

This is a photo of two Air Policemen in the late 1950s. As you can see, they wear sage green fatigues, and even though a black and white photo, you can see how incredibly dark their web gear is. That's because it has been dyed blue. Notice the dyed .45 pouch worn by the Air Policemen on the right is a WWI vintage M1918 pattern pouch. These particular pouches are usually a very light mustard khaki, which also made them easier to dye than the post-WWII M1923 .45 pouches which were all dark olive drab #7 (green).

Seems like a very plausible explanation and the guy I bought these from claimed to have other blue gear. I also have seen a few 1911 pouches in blue. Thanks for the contribution and I will still give you contributor of the month on this one or at least a gold star. I didn't pay extra for the blue dye, I think I got both pouches for around $70 which is about right for a five cell at $35.00 each

 

-Ron

[Big Al]

There were pics of a blue BAR belt posted on the US Militaria Forum a few years back. I'll try to find them.

[J.F. Bell]

Late to the party, I guess, but this came up in an unrelated google image search and reminded me of something I'd read. This came out of a book covering the 3rd Infantry Division and its part in the Second World War.

 

Early on (pre-Pearl Harbor) the 3rd supposedly had a very small element specially trained for amphibious warfare. If I remember correctly this was during their time at Fort Lewis. Per the book, this unit made a couple of island landings. Supposedly they were armed predominantly with submachine guns and had their web gear dyed black or dark blue. This is covered in maybe two paragraphs and goes as far as a large-scale practice landing in late 1941 or early '42 in California, after which the idea was shelved.

 

Tenuous connection, maybe, but an interesting footnote. I'll see if I can't scratch up my copy and transcribe the relevant passage here.

[ron_brock]

Thanks JF. I'd be very interested to see what it says or to find out what book you were reading with this information.

 

Ron

[J.F. Bell]

Not exactly as I recalled exactly, but I found the source.

 

History of the 3rd Infantry Division
ca. 1947

From page 7:

"A special phase of amphibious training was undertaken by 3d Reconnaissance Troop, which trained as commandos or raiders. The men, their fatigue suits dyed black and with black felt covering their helmets, wore rubber-soled shoes and carried knives and tommy guns during their many rubber-boat landings. They practiced reaching objectives at night by the most direct overland routes."

 

Dubious connection, probably. Unsurprisingly, google finds almost nothing on the 3rd RT and outside this one source, I haven't either. Also of note, this occurred after Pearl Harbor and done in preparation for landing in North Africa. I haven't read far enough ahead to see if the unit was actually put to use or whether they surface at all later in the war.

[1952HRA]

America did have units during WW2 that did the same kinds of missions as the SAS camandoes, these units the Marine raiders and the army's alamo scouts are both known for night operations, the raiders where known to dye there clothes and equipment dark blue or black, in the picture you can see guys whearing both dyed and OD3 uniforms, that being said I do agree that these where most likely dyed by a police force

[1952HRA]

Picture