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[Mike Hammer]

Black River Militaria CII,

I will certainly state outright that you have been involved in the machine gun community a lot longer than I and have much more knowledge. That said, I don't believe there could be any machine guns registered by the IRS without serial numbers after the initial 1934 registration push to have all machine guns and other devices cited in the 1934 National Firearms Act registered. I do agree that there are machine guns on what we call the Registry without serial numbers. I believe these few would be from the initial registration period when it appeared the IRS was accepting all registration forms as is. Since the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) is based on a specific serial number, I believe that requirement would be strictly mandated as the registration process evolved. Again, I believe anything was allowed on the early registrations but as the NFRTR evolved, I do not believe a NFA weapon could be entered into this system and more importantly approved, without a serial number. Hence, the IRS stamping kits.

 

Mike Hammer,

If your World War II M3 grease gun is an unrestricted (Form 4) registered machine gun, there would have to be an earlier registration document(s). Whether or not the earlier registration form(s) can be found by ATF Disclosure Division is another matter. I would contact the liaison people at the ATF Disclosure Division and ask them what is the earliest registration date and form as found on the NRFTR computer system Weapon History Report. Have your FOIA case number at hand so they will know this is a follow up inquiry. If this inquiry fails to produce any information, contact me via PM and I will help you draft another FOIA request asking specifically for this computer documentation.

 

A great discussion!

TD: I agree, there should have been an earlier document pertaining to my gun when I received my FOIA papers. And yes, it's unrestricted on a Form 4. I guess I should have filed for additional disclosure at the time but I just assumed that they sent me everything that they had on it. Is that phone number for the disclosure division easily located if I log onto the ATF website? i would like to solve this mystery. I will try contacting them as you suggest. Thanks!

 

MH

[inertord]

There is always a possibility that the ATF NFA Branch does not currently possess all copies of NFA Applications approved from 1934, up to the golden age of records computerization. Past stories state that a flood occurred in the NFA Records Storage area at sometime, and many original documents were lost? In 1990, I bid / purchased an Ithaca Auto Burglar AOW from a police department, and the NFA Transfer Application from the PD to myself was returned denied, as ATF stated that the gun was not entered in the NFA Registry. I was able to produce an original registration document that the PD fortunately still possessed, and my application was eventually approved, with no apologies or explanations. I would bet that there are still NFA Registered Firearms out there that haven't transferred in 55 years, and ATF doesnt retain the original registration documentation to prove existence and current registration, let alone provide a copy for a FOIA Request. Edited December 3, 2020 by inertord

[johnsonlmg41]

TD,

your assumption is based on US made MG's which are generally numbered, but not always. I know of several brownings that were never serial numbered, but do have IRS numbers from the amnesty. I won't go into further detail on those. There are certainly a significant number of "sterile" firearms done in the 60's as well that were never numbered. Many countries depending on the gun/ time frame were not serialized and were imported without numbers as bring backs or dewats and registered during the amnesty. IRS did not always see the guns. One gun I have here has the IRS number stamped just below the original serial number on the gun. Did the IRS do this? Gosh, I hope not? Electro pencil or even a scratch awl was fine up until at least the 80's. Show me an HK sear that has stamped info to today's new marking specs! Today's marking requirements are a relatively new rule, and like every rule, subject to interpretation.

 

October 71....excellent info. I recall seeing an FG with style of deactivation for sale at some point in the past. I sure wish you had registered 1800 instead of 18, but I'm sure everyone here thanks you for the 18!!

[1921A]

Regarding the IRS numbers found on some machine guns, maybe I missed something in this thread but Im aware of a number of MGs sporting IRS numbers and no or removed original serial numbers. I believe under some circumstances they also did this to conventional firearms if the serial number had been removed or damaged and the firearm was serviceable.

 

I found more than a few MGs in police departments with IRS numbers. Not sure when they stopped this but I think it was around May of 1986. There are quite a few Thompsons out there with IRS numbers.

[TD.]

johnsonlmg41,

My assumption that very few machine guns or other Class 3 type weapons would be entered into the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) is based on the obvious need for a serial number so the government can effectively regulate this program. If not by serial number, what? It appears the IRS bureaucrats came to the same conclusion. I do agree and have copies of several early Form 1's for Colt's that were originally filed without a serial number, i.e., defaced, removed, etc. Of note, many years later these same Colt's were stamped with an IRS serial number. That said, I believe the serial number requirement would be strictly mandated as the registration process evolved. Since the existence of IRS stamping kits is real and, apparently, IRS employees were known to stamp assigned numbers on firearms, I don't believe any registration forms would be approved without a serial number once the registration process got underway. Filing a form is one thing; the key is approval so the items can be entered on the NFRTR.

 

I do agree that mistakes were made along the way and there are anomalies and exceptions. Look no further than Mike Hammer's grease gun with an IRS serial number staring life on the NFRTR via a 1980 Form 3. Obviously, there has to be more to this story. Since IRS prefix serial numbers would have ceased sometime after the ATF was formed in 1972, how could this happen. According to ATF Disclosure Division, there is nothing more to see here.

 

Great discussion!

[bug]

I believe there was a Savage 28 around where the last patent number was used as the SN. I don't recall the details but it was a transferable.