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#1 M1 Thumb

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 10:51 PM

I heard that if a gun were in your family before the heavy gun laws and was not registered ou didnt have too.




If it was never registered and you buy it must you?
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#2 Grey Crow

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 10:58 PM

I wish I knew about the family issue.
But our local Police Dept. has a Colt Thompson and did not register it when the laws were past. Now they can't even take it out of the building. They at one time owned 2 but somewhere in time one has disappeared. The only thing I am told is that it has a Savage bolt in it, allegedly at one time or another their smith swapped out the colt bolt for one reason or another.
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#3 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 11:06 PM

If that NFA firearm is in the possession of a private party (not law enforcement) and was not registered during the amnesty period of 1968, no matter what the reasons, it is then an illegal firearm that by law necessitates surrender to ATF, whether there would ever be a transfer , or not.
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#4 Grey Crow

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 11:10 PM

I would have to agree with Arthur on that one from issues with locals over the years.
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#5 Tman

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 11:17 PM

Crow,
The PD can register the gun on a Form 10. It can then be used by the dept. or traded to another dept. or any other law enforcement agency. It can also be donated to a government (state, local, etc) museum.

M1,
Any firearm that is required to be registered and has not been is considered contraband and must be abandoned to ATF. The possessor can also make arrangements to donate the firearm to a govt. funded museum.
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#6 M1 Thumb

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 01:20 AM

dads got a few pistols from vietnam that are not registered..


That "Illegal"?
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#7 Walter63a

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 01:29 AM

M1 Thumb, I would think that if your state normally requires pistols to be registered, it might be a very serious problem. Also, there is a huge difference between pistols and SMG's/MG's, in the eyes of the 'Feds'. blink.gif ohmy.gif smile.gif cool.gif Regards, Walter
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#8 Sgt

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 09:35 AM

On a related note, I once saw a Colt 1911 at a gun show. It had several of the serial numbers removed. The seller said it was passed down by a Vet., and said that its OK to own as long as you weren't the one who removed the numbers. I walked away fast from that deal. But, I thought I'd ask, is there any truth to the seller's statement?
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#9 21 smoker

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 09:47 AM

Sgt,... in a word.. NO!...in two words..NO! NO!..you were wise to walk away.Ground off serial number guns are intended for one purpose...committing crimes.KEEPEM`SMOKIN`,out. wink.gif
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#10 craig101

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 10:51 AM

if you come across any unregistered machine guns, torch cut the receivers and part out the gun. i'd probably take pics of the torch cut receiver if the ATF knew (like if you called to check on the paperwork) for them if they should call on you to dispose of it. if not torch cut the bastard (receiver) and deep six it. of course keeping the other parts.

OR you could "donate" it to the ATF or a legit museum.



NOW, if it does not need to be registered with the ATF, like pistols, shotguns, and rifles. there is no registration per say, just the 4473 if you buy from a dealer. but if your dad wants to give you his old deer rifle and you are eligible to possess it, you can take it. hell before 1968, guns were not required to have serial numbers on them (was it '68?), MOST did already, but i know of a stevens double barrel shotgun made before 68 that has no serial number on it. and NO, it has not been altered in any way.
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#11 PK.

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 11:04 AM

T-Man would be the authority on this issue but I believe it is a federal offense to remove a serial number from a firearm. However, there is provision to re-apply a legal serial number to a gun so defaced. I have one such that was purchased from the San Diego sheriffs office.

I guess if I were faced with this situation I would make the seller aware of the law, then if the deal was good, have him turn the gun in with the agreement that I would purchase it upon clearance and re-numbering. If he were not willing to do this I would consider contacting the local authorities anyway.

My $.02

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#12 Bill in VA

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 11:05 AM

M1Thumb:

You're confusing apples with oranges, metaphorically speaking. As Arthur said, there's a world of difference between a handgun and a machinegun in the eyes of the BATF.

Federal law does not require that hanguns, rifles (min OAL 26"/min. bbl 16") or shotguns (min. OAL 26"/Min. bbl. 18") be registered. It doesn't matter how old they are, who got, etc... if they are Title I firearms, there is no federal law requiring registration as of 8 January, 2004.

Of course, some states require their inhabitants to register some types or all types of firearms. Kalifornia is one such state. New York is another. If your father and his guns reside in a state that requires firearms to be registered, he'd best comply. But again, that's STATE law we're talking about, and not federal law.

On the other hand, any and all NFA/Title II firearm/device such as a machinegun/submachinegun, short barrelled rifle (OAL less than 26"/bbl. less than 16"), short barrelled shotgun (OAL less than 26"/bbl. less than 18"), AOW (Any Other Weapon...smoothbore pistol/cane gun/cell phone gun/etc...), or destructive device (grenades/explosives, poison gas, breech loading cannons, breech loading firearms with a bore over .5" (but not shotguns) etc...) MUST be registered with the BATF and listed in the NFRTR (National Firearms Registry and Transfer Record.) For the record, "NFA" is short for National Firearms Act of 1934 (more correctly known as 26 USC, Chapter 53) and any firearms/devices falling under the purview of the '34 NFA are "Title II" firearms/devices.

An amnesty was held in 1968 for those people who possessed unregistered NFA/Title II to register it tax-free and without penalty. No amnesty has been held since. Carrying it one step further, Congress passed section 922(o) of the 1968 Gun Control Act (GCA/18 USC, Chapter 44) in May of 1986. Prior to May 19, 1986, an individual could file a Form 1, and upon receipt of an approved Form 1, make and register a machinegun.

922(o) basically says that any machinegun/submachinegun NOT listed in the NFRTR as of May 19, 1986 can not be transferred or possessed by anyone except bonafide law enforcement agencies, government agencies, or FFL/SOT (Federal Firearms Licensees with Special Occupational Taxpayer status) who have a police department letter requesting a demonstration of a particular make/model of machinegun. No exceptions.

In short, if your father has an old Smith and Wesson or Colt revolver he is under no obligation to register it with the federal govt. He may, however, have to register it with his state govt., so you/he should check your state and local laws. If, however, your father has an old Thompson submachinegun that was never registered to him (or worse, never registered at all) with the federal govt. he is violation of a dozen or so federal laws, plus his state laws, and there is no way for him to ever register it (unless by some stroke of luck the Secretary of the Treasury decides to hold another amnesty.)

Bottom line:
Don't confuse state and local laws, they're two completely different animals, and you have to abide by both.



For Sgt.:

Both 18 USC Ch 44, 922(k) and CFR 178.34 make it illegal to "...transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foriegn commerce any firearm which has had its serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or to possess or receive any firearm which has had its serial number removed, obliterated, or altered..."

In case anyone wants to argue that there was never any interstate commerce involved they need to find a way around 922(q)(1)(D) wherein Congerss stated "...even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its component parts, ammunition, and the materials from which they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce."

Bottom line, possession of any firearm that once had a serial number but no longer has one is a crime under federal law, and most likely under state law as well.
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#13 Tman

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 11:47 AM

Action taken by ATF on a firearm with a removed or obliterated s/n depends on the intent of the possessor. A lady came into my favorite gun shop with a 1911 that had the s/n ground off. The gun had been in the family since WWII. The number was probably removed when it was brought home from overseas. We issued a new number to the gun, the dealer stamped it on and it was sold.

I had another guy come to the office with a Rem 700 action in the white. No markings whatsoever. We issued him a number and off he went to build his rifle. No harm, no foul.

Don't be afraid to ask. There are lots of ways to get things done so that all remain happy.


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#14 bug

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 12:12 PM

I believe serial numbers are required. I do recall that older 22 cal rifles for a period of time were not serial numbered but I notice that todays 22s are.

I would like to know when SNs were made a requirement by Feds and how does rifle vs pistol vs shotgun differ.
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#15 Tman

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 02:31 PM

Serial numbers were not required on .22 rifles and shotguns until the GCA was inacted in 1968. After that, all firearms were required to be serialized. Most of the major manufacturers serialized their firearms before '68. We still see the ones without numbers quite frequently. The majority being small makers and ones made for private label (Montgomery Ward, Sears, Globe, etc).
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#16 Tman

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 02:36 PM

Thanks Phil. The way I see it is that you guys (and gals) are paying my salary. It's only right to give something back to ya'll out there. I do what I can with what I got.
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#17 farfuture

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 03:21 PM

I hav a nice little S&W Model 40 that I needed a lanyard ring attached to. The serial number, howevr,is in just that place. The gunsmith neatly engraved the serial slightly up the grip, and then drilled into the butt to install the lanyard ring. I hope he knew what he was doing.

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#18 Walter63a

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 08:33 PM

Farfuture, the constellation, group of stars, on your shield represent the Southern Cross, right? cool.gif blink.gif smile.gif I believe it can best be seen in the Southern Hemisphere and I associate it with New Zealand and Australia. It can't be seen North of 27 deg. N. Latitude (where I am). sad.gif blink.gif Where are you from? biggrin.gif Regards, Walter
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