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#1 Wayne W

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 03:23 PM

Updated with new info


Just in case anyone is interested here is a brief rundown of events.

6/8/05 faxed FOIA letter, photocopied letter with drivers license on one page, was not Notarized
used sample letter mentioned on this board

6/16/05 letter from DOJ acknowledge receipt of request

7/13/05 letter from DOJ with copies of forms
breakdown of the 8 pages of copies
3 5320.20 from when I traveled with this gun before getting C&R 1996, 1997, 2000

2 Form 4 front and back when gun was transfered to me March 1995

1 Form 3 dealer to dealer transfer to get it in state November 1994

1 Form 5 Homewood Police Dept, Homewood, IL to Scattergun Tech. March 1994

1 IRS Form 5 from ? (assume a dealer) to Homewood IL Police Dept January 1954

Life history of a Savage made 1928 A1 TSMG S-2514XX

Manufactured fall of 1941

1941 till Jan 1954 unknown at this time
Most likely a commercial sale it has no mil. inspection marks.
Engraved on side of receiver "PROPERTY OF BRITISH ROLA"
British ROLA acquired Celestion and changed name in 1947-48

Jan 1954 dealer? sold to Homewood IL Police Dept

March 1994 Homewood PD sold or traded to Scattergun Tech in Nashville TN

Nov 1994 TN dealer to OR dealer transfer

March 1995 transfer to me

So does anybody know of any dealers that were working in 1954?

Edited by Wayne W, 05 August 2005 - 10:24 PM.

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#2 Sig

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 04:18 PM

There are only a handful of dealers in TN, check the SAR issue in their dealer listing issue.
You might find the TN dealer and if you are really lucky that dealer might have the transfer papers to him indicating who he/she recieved it from.
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#3 colt21a

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 04:47 PM

i think in 1954 sam cumming's,r.j.perry, just a youngster in the game.and rasmussen now deceased...

remember 51 year's ago...they would have to have been age 21. so that means 72 today or maybe older...

not really too many of those guy's around anymore...heck all the old mobster's have died off also..i know of two in phx tucson area. just turned 78 and 80...however they longer do anything..........good luck on all that research...take care,ron

p.s. remember what a ole dealer once told me,once you do all that research on a gun you own, you pass away...and they hand it over to somebody else and you then become part of that story{history}wink!! scary huh??
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#4 Wayne W

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 05:05 PM

Should have made it a little less confusing.

The dealer that the gun was transfered to in March 1994 is Roger Small of then Scattergun Technologies
in Nashville, TN. I bought my first full auto from him in 1987 back when I still lived in TN. I have sent an e-mail asking if he remembers anything or still has his records.

What I don't know is,
Homewood IL PD- which law enforcement agency had this gun from Jan 1954 till March 1994?
- who the dealer was in 1954?
- or where the gun was from 1941 till 1954?

Edited by Wayne W, 05 August 2005 - 11:12 PM.

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#5 John Jr

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 08:26 PM

I was looking for George Trgina if anyone knows where he is. He got my Thompson out of the police agency. This was in PA I think.


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#6 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 09:56 PM

Hey Ron,

Have you heard of dealers from the 1970's named Robert Spengel or William York?

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#7 colt21a

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 10:09 PM

try bill york and tom spengel. i know them both and still kickin....take care,ron
and bill harris out of il.back in 1976/77
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#8 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 05 August 2005 - 11:18 PM

Ron,

Did Bill & Tim operate out of the southwest and were they known to deal in TSMG's or all around NFA items?

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#9 colt21a

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 12:36 AM

both had alot of both,and they had thompson's also.harris from il. had as many as ten when i met him...he disappeared soon after!was a real nice guy...

one in utah the other in phx area.

not too many really went all thompson...like i did for alot of year's...but of course got bit by the bug and bought everything else...including ar-10's...now in reed's collection in fl.and a few stoner system's..

funny thing i still have one brochure from each model..

it was fun,
take care,ron
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#10 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 12:47 PM

Ron,

This is fascinating. As a dealer, what would be the average time and the longest time you would hold on to an mg after acquiring it? Did you keep something special for say a decade or was everything always up for sale and advertised for sale? I was wondering why dealers like Cox and Earl never seemed to get attached to any particular smg/mg while other less high profile dealers used their dealer license to build collections and just did enough business to satisfy the license requirements.

It seems that a lot of the NFA business in 70/80's was transacted between dealers. Perhaps the only dealers who would make any real profit in the business would be those who initially purchased from the PD's around the country and then sold to non dealers. I imagine the mark up of an smg/mg in subsequent sales between the known community of dealers was minuscule.

Maybe the skyrocketing trend in NFA prices can also be traced back to when the dealers began transacting more frequently among non dealers 10 years ago or there abouts. How did you see it?

Did you also know Ross Capawana?

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#11 colt21a

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Posted 06 August 2005 - 07:47 PM

had one deal with ross capawana,he was a real nice guy,so was ron rudin{the guy that they found his head in the neveda desert]sad story!

most dealer's that i knew and know of always had stuff for less then a year...you always turned inventory to buy other stuff...and if you had a love for it like i did,and did not sell at t.g.pricing like you see today...for no matter what it is. i became attached to a few piece's and some i had for year's...others for month's... and most in the 70's and 80's was done among dealer's...there was about 3,500 plus back then...i think today less then 1,500. that is class three not just standard ffl holder's.

alot died' retired,got tired,fee changes' of $500.00
and of course the price change...still today some won't admit it.they hate paying $20,000 for what would cost $5,000.00,and there was a time you'd get some nice goodie's on a deal.now lucky if you get one mag or belt.and they want a thank you for giving you that...oh! plus the shipping and handling and upcharge,heck if i am selling something at cost or close to it your darn right i'd charge shipping..but when i'm making a few buck's i'd throw it in...

{maybe the tell all class three book should be written yet}with 33 year's under my belt as class three i could qualify wink!

then get a few more oldster's...just think 100 year's of class three under one cover...

as far as class three dealer's building collection's the license was not meant to do that. i guess tho some did it that way.

not that it made it right.i got along with cox and earl...and just about everybody else out there...

and gave alot of dealer's a bit of my bizz...funny thing..i gave alot of guy's some great deal's.but never seemed to get many back...

sold a few thompson's for $500.00 and $1,000 over my cost,and when i tried to buy some back and offered the same shake even a grand more...they said no deal,short memorie's.. my best was serial #98,the dealer beat me up to $8,500.00 on it.about $800.00 over cost....and said would take it to the grave...it was for sale probably as fast as shipped for over $25,000.00

what do i feel as far as some dealer's and collector's...PIRATE'S w/o the parrot and the eyepatch..

some dislike me or my comment's because they hate fact's and truth on deal's..

i have always tried to be fair with everybody out there on deal's..and if something went haywire beyond my control i made it right.gave something extra.or refund...

sad fact i just should have said.f-off because some still slammed me behind my back....the thing is i found out later...as they never knew all the dealer's and collector's i knew out there.who would tell me these class three tid-bit's..because they wanted a deal on something...

now the history is really all out of it..alot of the fun is gone,and price's not even worth the time to discuss.

and the knowledge. with some today..is what you got and how much can i steal it for??{they can give a rat's arse who owned it or history unless they can charge another $15,000.00 when they sell it.and then they will even take a made up history tale.. go figure.

not ever worth for me to explain that at all!

the future of class three who know's what it will bring.
however i don't see some rosy future.more darkness.

well hope i answered a few question's. havea good one take care,ron
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#12 1921A

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Posted 07 August 2005 - 12:47 PM

Wayne W:

I remember this gun. Back about 1985-86 I learned of the gun from a contact at MSP.
Homewood PD was interested in trading it for new equipment but the deal kept falling through and I finally gave up on it. As I remember it was a beautiful 28. Glad to hear someone finally ended up with it. Post pictures when you can.

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