Navy Swivels

[PaulJicha]

There has been much discussion as to the Enfield swivels used on early horizontal foregrips. My (likely stupid) question is, were the same swivels used on the rear point for these guns as well?

 

Thanks.

[TD.]

The short answer is yes. However, you must remember that wood for a Thompson gun are bolt on parts. Owners of multiple Thompson guns, i.e., police departments & penal institutions, could have (and usually have) swapped the wood around for the various guns in inventory. I don't think this area has been given a lot of study mainly due to the rarity of original Thompson guns with horizontal fore grips.

[PaulJicha]

Makes sense. Photos showing early examples of Navy swivels also tend to have the rear one obscured, since they tend to depict people holding or shouldering it in positions that cover that area.

 

 

[TD.]

Notwithstanding the several known variations of the Model of 1923 Thompson gun (experiment), the Model of 1927 semi-automatic carbine would have been the first official Thompson model offered with a horizontal fore grip and sling swivels. The 28 Navy model came shortly thereafter.

[DLansky]

I have a 28 Navy with the correct Enfield offset swivel on a correct horizontal foregrip, but the colt buttstock has a GI swing swivel. I have been looking for awhile for a colt buttstock for purchase or trade with the correct enfield offset swing swivel. I doubt the gun left Auto Ordnance with the GI swing swivel on the buttstock. at some point the buttstock must have been switched and then the GI swivel added later.

[jim c 351]

Dlansky,

I have no idea whats correct and whats incorrect in your case, but the M1903 swivel would have been available since 1903 and the Enfield swivel since at least 1914.

Jim C

[darrylta]

I haven't compared the dimensions of the two swivels myself.

Does anyone know if the mortises are the same size?

-Darryl

[TD.]

The Enfield swivel has a smaller base. The two different types of swivels used on the Colt Thompson are not interchangeable.

[AlexanderA]

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<p>Does anyone know if the mortises are the same size?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p> </p>

<p>They are not. The 1903 Springfield butt swivel base is longer than the Enfield, and the screws on the Springfield are spaced wider apart. The Springfield base measures 1.715" long, while the Enfield measures 1.555" long. Both are 0.555" wide. The screw holes for the Springfield are 1.17" o.c., while those for the Enfield are 0.98" o.c. Also, the swivel base screws are different, with the Enfield screws having "sharper" threads and the Springfield screws more "rounded" threads. The standard WWII M1928A1 Thompsons used Springfield swivels and bases, but Enfield swivel base screws and buttplate screws.</p>

</div>

 

[jim c 351]

Dlansky,

I have no idea whats correct and whats incorrect in your case, but the M1903 swivel would have been available since 1903 and the Enfield swivel since at least 1914.

Jim C

 

My point was not that these swivels could be interchanged, but that they both could have been on hand at Colt at the same time. Gen Thompson had connections at Springfield Armory and the M1903 and at Remington Arms and the P14/M1917. No doubt he could have obtained swivels from both sources with a phone call.

Would it have been possible, that at some point in time, a Colt foreman handed Joe a box of Enfield swivels and instructed him to make up 500 forends. And then having run out of Enfield swivels , instructed Sam to take a box of 03 swivels and install on some stocks.

Perhaps Sam would have said , excuse me sir, but if I use 1903 swivels instead of Enfield swivels , we will be criticised by collectors in 2012.

Of course the M1903 became standard on later Thompson.

Anyway, instead of Dlansky owning a horribly mismatched Colt , He may have a transitional gun.

Of coursed this is all speculation on my part.

Jim C

Where's Arthur when we need him???

[gijive]

I have a 1928 Navy Overstamp butt stock that has a mortise for the sling swivel. It is the same size as the horizontal fore grip mortise, which is the smaller base for the Enfield type swivel. In other words, a Springfield swivel will not fit. The gun also came with a plate inserted into the mortise, held by two screws, when it was shipped to the agency that purchased it. No sling swivel was attached.

[TD.]

Chuck,

That butt stock is an interesting find, especially the attached filler plate. Did you obtain the butt stock with a Thompson gun attached? Any known history you can share?

Thanks!