MP40 tube gun questions

[Devil Dog 1110]

I am looking to buy a MP40 tube gun for a shooter.

I need some advice as to what important questions to ask a seller.

Also I what's the current price range for a tube gun?

I am willing to pay top dollar for something in really good shape.

 

Thanks for your help

[TSMGguy]

Tube guns will always cost less than the all matching variety. Some function well; some don't. For that reason I recommend a personal inspection that involves some range time.

 

MP40s originally required hand fitting during the assembly process. American infantry weapons of the same era didn't. In the US, any need for hand fitting was cause to reject entire lots of parts and shut down production until the situation was rectified. The problem today is that you can have a MP40 tube gun with a real mix of worn out parts that are not even from the same manufacturer or year. Or, you can have an excellent condition all matching parts kit that's mated up to a high quality tube from Andrewski or Erb that even has matching markings and serial number. You'll have to decide what's acceptable to you.

 

No MP40 can be expected to function really reliably with good old Winchester white box 115 gr. from Wal Mart. Conduct your tests with NATO M882 or equivalant. It's full power stuff.

 

FWIW, I sold the tube gun (Inland, Austin, TX) when I found a nice all matching BNZ 41. The difference between the two is striking, and the original function, fit, and overall quality of the matching original is worth paying extra to get. Most tube gun owners will eventually trade into one.

[Sarge]

"MP40s originally required hand fitting during the assembly process" I'd like to know what your references are for this. I've been collecting German for 60 yrs and I can't remember ever seeing that in print.

An MP 40 needs about the same amount of hand fitting as a K98k Mauser or a Garand - ZIP!

I have several "tube" guns, a couple are matching parts kits with the rec made and numbered to match. I have a couple that are a mix/match of parts assembled on a new tube. I have the same results with all of them - they function flawlessly! I have tubes made by at least 3 different makers and erb isn't one of them. I've heard some bad things about his and another maker or 2, but have no personal experience with any of them.

It would seem to me that there is not much that can be wrong with a tube unless it isn't cut right, but if junky parts are assembled to it then you could have a problem.

IF you had some terribly worn parts maby you would have a problem, but if the parts are in good shape there should be no problem.

I would never shoot any of my original, matching MP 40s - that is what I have tube guns for!

Sarge

[13E20]

Bottom line, SEE it run before you buy it. Ask if its mixed parts or matched parts. especially the bolt/recoil spring/firing pin assembly. I agree with the info about hand fitting the MP40 during assembly. Not in the scale of a luger, but if one has seen a quantity of parts from seveal guns, there are some signs of hand fitting. Most of these old recoil spring assemblies need new recoil/buffer springs. It really make a difference in how these guns run. Ask about magazines, as not all mags fit all mag housings correctly.

[TSMGguy]

"The practice of stamping many of the parts with the weapon's primary serial number was believed to have been done to assist in keeping all of the parts in the same weapon. This was due to the fact that the tolerances used in the manufacture of the German weapons did not allow for the complete interchangability of parts between guns." Iannamico, "Blitzkrieg, The MP40. . ." Pg. 108.

 

The Germans simply did not have small arms parts interchangability in WWII as it was practiced in the US. That is, complete interchangability with absolutely no hand fitting allowed. In US practice, only the receiver was serial numbered. All other parts made by all contractors and subcontractors were expected to fit. In the US, small arms were assembled by relatively unskilled labor. Axis weapons were assembled by highly trained bulider/assemblers, who were authorized to do whatever the weapon needed to work, within limits.

 

Sarge has been lucky with his tube guns. I wasn't, and bought a mismatched abortion sight unseen. It worked, after a fashion, but with poor accuracy.

[83Baron]

I've been looking at MP40's for a while now and wondered what the current market value was for a wilson or erb tube gun in good working order. I was thinking between 8-11k based on other sales I've seen. Also, what are the pros or cons of buying a reblued tube gun. I assume value isn't effected much as we are not talking about all matching C&R's. Maybe the durability is better as long as defects aren't being covered up. Thanks for your opinions.

[Mike Hammer]

I would say that your values are accurate in today's market for a shooter MP40 tube gun. Correct on the bluing, it's not too critical, overall condition is more important. Erb and Wilson are two of the best. Some of the work Erb did matches an original perfectly, he even added the german markings on his. It's always good to try out the gun before you buy, at the very least ask for detailed photos before you make a decision.

 

Mike Hammer

[TSMGguy]

The case can be made that recievers made by Charlie Erb are even better than the originals. Original German guns used a tube that started out as a flat piece of steel. It was wrapped around a mandrel which gave it its distinctive shape and side seam. Erb used a thicker tube with uniform outside and inside diameters. He milled the outside to get the characteristic ridges and features. This means that Erb tubes have a uniform interior diameter without the interior channels of the originals. Dirt and debris could build up in these channels without causing stopages. In the Erb guns, this crud has nowhere to go. Not sure that this is actually a problem, though.

Edited August 13, 2013 by TSMGguy

[The Lone Ranger]

Like Sarge, I and my friends must be leading charmed lives. My first tube gun was a post 86 built by a small volume mfg in Nevada and a friend who is an 07 has built a few posties on his own from Philly Ord tubes. I have subsequently owned one Wilson 40 and currently an Erb 38 tube guns - all have functioned excellent with Wolf, WWB, S&B, Israeli surplus, or about anything else other than some older Hansen Cartridge ammo that did not have enough steam to cycle the action.

 

Something to bear in mind in case it bothers you: just because it says Wilson or Erb or ??? doesn't mean those guys built the gun. Several "secondary mfgs" bought tubes and completed the guns with their own parts kits. The Wilson 40 I had was just such a firearm - the dealer I bought it from acquired as a bare tube and added the parts, then more recently I found a mfg with a stripped Erb 38 tube (how lucky is that?) to which I supplied a complete 38 kit for assembly then took delivery of the completed firearm. I have yet to clean it - still waiting for a malfunction. Bottom line is unless you can personally verify where that gun has been since 198x, you don't really know but they are great guns - a dream to shoot, a breeze to clean and a first rate "gateway drug" to intro a newbie to the hobby as anyone from young kids to adults can have a run with no problems thus my outlook is "so what?".

 

As for price.... me personally (an admitted cheapskate) would probably not exceed 8000-9000. Have seen some people wanting 10-11k, but you can get a C&R for 13-15 (down from 18-20 during the craze) without extensive labor and it would just rub me to pay that close $ for a tube.

Edited August 24, 2013 by The Lone Ranger

[Robert Henley]

An MP40 is right up there with a Thompson to own for me. A "shooter" tube gun would be a good option I think.

 

Robert

[jl7422]

I have a Wilson--it was my first sub gun and a great entry into the C-3 world. It runs great on Winchester white box, and now our own reloads. Replaced the recoil and buffer springs with Wolff, and have had to replace a couple of sections of the telescoping recoil tube assembly, and an extractor over the years and thousands of rounds of use. I now keep several spares of each in stock and ready to go.

 

On any of them keep in mind you're dealing with 65+ year-old mass-produced parts, made under wartime conditions that were never designed to last this long. So expect that whatever you buy will need work -right out of the box and/or from time to time. . . they have already gone way past what they were intended to do.

[Speeddemon02]

FWIW I spent 9k on a Wilson tube gun recently and haven't really seen many go lower than that, but on the flip side haven't seen any really go higher than 11k except for one that was being priced at 12k, but thought that was a bit over priced as it didn't sell either. I'm new to the firearm world in general and have been making some of the big no-no's, but have been trying to compensate for that. I bought the Wilson one without going to see it first, but the seller did do a video skype with it and had paperwork from a reputable MG gunsmith that did quite a bit of work on it to insure that it would work flawlessly that will be included with the sale, but I'd assume this situation doesn't come up very often.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Speeddemon02

[History Hunter]

I have a tube gun that shoots great. When I first got it from Ruben Mendiola, it wasn't functioning very well. Ruben stepped up to the plate and took care of me ... had the gun sent off at HIS expense to a friend, who made it run flawlessly. It's a lesser known tube gun, I think by a company called "S&S" or something like that. The gun is a pleasure to shoot now, and consumes just about any brand of ammo. Thanks, Ruben!

[TEXASMP40]

I have had a MP40 tube gun for several years.

Tube was from Philadelphia Ord.

Only problem I ever had was that the cocking handles kept coming off.

I tried brazing them on & then Tig welding them on, but the heat hardened the handle too much and made it brittle and they still broke off.

 

I tried hammering the handle to swedge the end in place inside the bolt.

2 problems - I ended up deforming the external end of the cocking handle, when I hammered on the other end to flare it into the inside of the bolt, plus it never really was a tight fit.

 

I finally made an aluminum jig that went around the handle and also cradled the bolt at the same time.

This helped keep it from deforming the handle end when the bolt end was flared.

Then I made a swedging tool that I could put on my press.

 

I got a replacement handle and then coated the stem with a really good epoxy, inserted the handle into the bolt & jig & then swedged the end of the handle into the bolt with my press.

After the epoxy fully cured, I polished it down smooth.

Haven't had any problems since.

 

Just my 2 cents, some suppliers sell FPB parts as being interchangeable, very few people I know have gotten these to work and if they did the parts had to have some hand fitting done.

 

Also most of the time, I run the heavier 124 gr 9mm, in Federal, Aquila or Fioochi.

I do have some NATO spec. ammo, but my gun runs fine and slower on the other stuff.

Edited May 15, 2014 by TEXASMP40

[83Baron]

Quick question for the experts. I recently received my wilson mp40 tube, and the gun looks great, tight stock, great bore, clean, etc. One thing I noticed right off though was that the barrel nut was loose. The washer is still there and you can hand tighten it, but just wondering if you should use a torque wrench to give it a good turn and then be done. Also, being the sling ring can be moved if you loosen the barrel nut, should it be on the same side as the sliding bolt or the other side. Thank you for your input.

[The Lone Ranger]

Not many experts on the internet, but ....

 

The sling can go either way. If you actually want to use a sling, just cipher whether you want the handle maybe sticking you in the back.... or maybe you want to carry it in front and you are right handed in which case the left side would work better? Kind of a personal decision.

 

You can crank down pretty tight on the barrel nut or it will come loose. Maybe someone more mechanically inclined can suggest a specific number for you. I'm a hayseed, so "until it quits coming loose" is about as precise as it gets here.

[83Baron]

Thanks Lone Ranger. Yeah I just meant those with lots of MP40 experience. Makes sense about the sling. I was trying to be factory correct, and after a little more research I believe they came standard on the right side.

 

As far as the barrel nut, I was thinking just using a wrench as well with a cloth to protect the finish, but just wanted to make sure with a pricey gun first. Appreciate the advice, now just gotta try it out!

[The Lone Ranger]

Based on lots of period photos I believe right side is the norm. Have done what you are considering re: tightening. Crescent wrench and 1-2 layers of cotton shirt big enough that if the wrench slips off it wont scrape metal. Probably more sophisticated methods but it works

[Robert Henley]

I have a tube gun that shoots great. When I first got it from Ruben Mendiola, it wasn't functioning very well. Ruben stepped up to the plate and took care of me ... had the gun sent off at HIS expense to a friend, who made it run flawlessly. It's a lesser known tube gun, I think by a company called "S&S" or something like that. The gun is a pleasure to shoot now, and consumes just about any brand of ammo. Thanks, Ruben!

 

This is great feedback on Ruben.

[gunhistorian]

How about some Loc-Tite on the threads to keep the barrel nut from loosening? Presumably NOT the industrial-grade "heat to remove" stuff!

[frets24]

Right side is the most prevalent configuration for the sling ring, though either side is historically correct as evidenced by numerous wartime photos. IIRC I read that mfg put it on the right and armourers in the field would swap it 'round to the taste of the individual.

 

I've swapped my OEM barrels out for new mfg barrels, OEM firing pins for new Ohio Ordinance pins and run FPB bolts that have been "finished" (as in, the rest of the machining has been done so they run with the OEM recoil tube w/ firing pin) Both of my Tube guns and one wartime original are numbers matching so I didn't want to risk those parts unnecessarily.

 

That being said;

 

I stick the receiver in a vise using a pair of soft pine 2x1 pieces(wide part against the gun) as jaw pads to grab the receiver forward of the mag well and bands. you can't deform it there due to the trunion and the pine conforms to the ridges in the tube so it's plenty stable for working on the bbl nut. A 12'' handle strap wrench goes for about $10 at Lowe's or Home Depot and grabs the nut great with no chance of gouging or scratching. Put a dab of grease or Vaseline on the threads and hand tighten as well as you can, wrap the strap wrench on the nut and pull another 1/16 turn on a used crush washer or 1/8 turn on a new crush washer...it doesn't have to be gorilla tight... that should be plenty tight to not vibrate loose and not so tight as to heat seize from a good many mag dumps.

 

Added benefit...you now have a strap wrench which is great to have under the kitchen sink so your wife/GF (and you on the rare occasion) can open stuck jar lids that other wise create fits of temper!!

 

Cheers!

[gunhistorian]

This is a belated follow-up question/comment to the material above on serial numbered parts for the MP-38/40 guns. As most "RKI"s know, the parts in Johnson M1941 rifles were numbered and one frequently sees either "wanted to buy" ads for "matching numbered" Johnson rifles or these rifles advertised (rarely) for sale (all numbered parts match!). The manufacturing log that I viewed fails to reflect ANY Johnson rifles in which the numbers stamped on the parts match the receiver number (or one another, for that matter). These parts bore a "serial number" because that is what the Dutch contract called for. Has nothing to do with interchangability. That requirement might reflect Dutch military requirements which presumed non-interchangability of parts. I just don't know the reason. Or it may have been an inventory-tracking requirement. My understanding is that a number of subcontractors provided parts for the MP-38/40 weapons, similar to the subcontracting of parts for the JSAR. My question or comment is whether there is documentary evidence that a certain amount of hand-fitting was required during the production of the MP-38/40 series of subguns? I am well aware that the Reising had to have parts hand-fitted, which is one of the reasons for the USMC's lack of faith in that weapon.

Edited March 21, 2015 by gunhistorian

[TSMGguy]

I don't think we can draw parallels between the serial numbering practices on the M1941 JSAR and the MP38 or '40. M1941 serial numbers were applied to numbered componants as they were made. The rifles were assembled without regard to keeping serial numbered items together. If an original M1941 had any matching numbers at all it was only a coincidence, though the original factory records did list some of the serial numbers other than the receiver of individual rifles.

 

MP40 numbers were applied as the guns were assembled, and not by the subcontractor that made the parts. This was standard German practice, done because a certain amount of hand fitting was required by skilled assemblers.

 

American practice was that no hand fitting was to be required or even allowed in the case of WWII weapons made under the auspices of the US Army's Ordnance department. The goal was complete parts interchangability, and this was achieved.

 

There were no US Government contracts for the M1941. It was strictly a private effort.

[gunhistorian]

Yeah. I know about Johnson weapons -- I kind of wrote the book. LOL Thanks for the explanation of the German production of the MP38/40 weapons. What parts were hand fitted, just to satisfy my rather inane (or is it insane?) curiosity? (It was this kind of curiosity that led to the research and writing of the Johnson book -- and now a book manuscript on American Armament Corporation, the private arms dealers of the Inter-War Period, and the Miranda brothers!)