Why are West Hurley receivers out of spec?

[buzz]

It makes no sense to me that West Hurley guns are out of spec.

 

The original blueprints are available.

 

They only made like 300 of the guns a year. That's not walmart level manufacture, that's boutique level production.

 

Why couldn't they have subcontracted the work to some smallish machine shop and had an inspector gauge the parts for quality control?

 

Back when those guns were made, basically the entire northeast of the USA was covered with thousands of small factories that were being slowly crushed by the post-Vietnam recession.

 

Any one of those places could have been hired to expertly make Thompson receivers instead of jobbing parts for Detroit or for the military.

 

Also, the Thompson was designed for old-school manufacture. It's not like it's some jet turbine that's machined from a single metal crystal grown in zero gravity.

 

They even used a sub-par kind of steel on the receiver. What does a bar of ordnance grade steel cost? $1.50 per pound?

 

It seems like they almost went out of their way to make a 3rd rate firearm.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they were made, but it was such a half-hearted effort that I wonder why they bothered at all.

 

Consider that the US commercial firearms industry had perfected commercial gun manufacture to a fine art, consumers were used to getting superbly made guns for their money.

Edited August 26, 2014 by buzz

[darrylta]

Most likely a profit motive. All concerned knew that these were just novelty guns that were not

slated for war or police use and did not have the significant inspections that the Colt and WWII guns did.

 

I wish that I was more up to speed before I bought my two, a 28 & M1. I tried to get the seller

to keep the M1 before the transfer took place with a 10% profit, that didn't fly of course.

Vahan with automaticweapons.com was the seller. Nothing is better than knowledge, you live and learn

In my case, both have been PK'd and are really nice shooters.

-Darryl

[Paladin601]

Probably gets down to 2 things, machinery and skill level of employees. I think that an Investment cast would be the way to go now. But alas, we can't make new ones and not enough post samples to make a profit.

[reconbob]

Back when they made the WH's they didn't care. If they could sell the gun as it was - leaded steel receiver,

inaccurate machine work, low quality purple investment castings - they did. Yes, the technology exists to make

quality firearms, and it did back then, but its not all as easy as it sounds. One thing to keep in mind is that back

then the guns sold for (I think) $400. Making guns - as we know them - is an

art. I have attempted to subcontract manufacture of gun receivers several times and I gave up because the shops

(who were state of the art) just could not make parts that were right and especially that looked right. You can only

baby-sit someone so far and then its too much trouble. Look at Kahr - they have all the money and resources you

can imagine - I read in a trade publication that they bought 650 acres in Pennsylvania to move all firearm production

to a more gun-friendly state - and yet the currently production semi auto Thompson is a real dud. But the gun sells

and they have no reason (I guess) to improve it. Of course, minor improvements add up and I have said before that

its amazing that they can sell them at the prices they do...

Today the piece of 4140 steel I use the make Thompson receivers costs approx. $20, then sawed to length,

another $4 to stress relieve and anneal it, 15 minutes of machining to get it within 0.015" of finished size, $13.50 to get it

Blanchard ground to finished size. So before any of the "real" work takes place I've got $37.50 plus 15 minutes of

machining into a receiver.

 

Bob

[timkel]

Interesting topic. Did Numrich manufacture the receivers in house? Or contract them out?

I remember reading an interview with Ira Trast discussing the history of Numrich. He did talk about the Thompsons they built but not in enough detail.

Edited August 26, 2014 by timkel

[03clyde]

There's an NIB WH on Buddy;'s board this afternoon.

[buzz]

The $425 price for a WH 1928 in 1975 would be equal to $1,882 today.

 

per the CPI inflation calculator

[buzz]

Apparently Numrich had two local NY firms, Quality Manufacturing and IONA make all their parts.

 

Plus they got some misc parts from a Japanese company called the Model Gun Company

[mnshooter]

There's an NIB WH on Buddy;'s board this afternoon.

 

Same ad on Subguns, with photos; interesting for anyone wanting to see what the factory shipped package looked like.

 

 

And only $22,000.

[TD.]

The Auto-Ordnance Corporation (AOC), West Hurley, New York, was formed primarily to market a semi-automatic rifle that looked like the famous Thompson submachine gun but could be obtained without all the federal paperwork required for ownership of a fully automatic weapon. The semi-auto's were the mainstay of the business; the sub-machine guns were only a small part of the operation. Most all the parts, including the receivers, were produced by subcontractors or outside vendors. GI parts were used when available.

 

I would guess the decision for the type of steel used was based on the production of the semi-automatic rifle. I would also guess the manufacture of the semi-automatic rifle was less complicated than the sub-machine gun. Perhaps, reconbob could comment on this.

 

Retail price was certainly a factor and most likely had a lot to do with quality control or the lack thereof. When Colt Thompson's were selling for around $1,000 and former military guns less than that, the West Hurley's submachine guns were targeted for the bottom of the market. If not for the 1986 ban, West Hurley's Thompson guns would still be priced around $500 because much better products would be available in the marketplace. And no one would care that George Numrich and Ira Trast manufactured at best, a problem submachine gun.

 

All that said, it is a good thing 3,000 plus Class Three weapons were added to the NFA Registry by AOC West Hurley. It still allows for a cheaper Thompson ownership option.

[TSMGguy]

It makes no sense to me that West Hurley guns are out of spec . . . . .

Too late now, huh? It is what it is.

[Paladin601]

Not necessarily to late, we can learn from the mistakes. But, I doubt, it seems now a days everyone wants to repeat the mistakes.

[Doug Richardson]

posted by mkw

 

Numerich either did not have the drawings or refused to use them, what they would do when they wanted a part made is send out a sample to a local machine shop and have the shop try to reverse engineer the part. I know this because they tried repeatedly to get me to make parts for them. In each instance I would insist on a drawing, not once did they provide a drawing. Years later Ira Trast tried to sell me the business. Part of what they had according Ira were hundreds and hundreds of drawings. He said had no idea of what the drawings were about.

[buzz]

I knew this thread would turn out to be interesting one way or the other.

 

This is one of the best technical forums on the internet IMHO.

 

Doug, if you have a spare minute sometime, please expand on your dealings with Numrich, I'm sure that everyone would like to hear more about it.