Identifying Dulite

[huggytree]

I have seen many posts arguing about du-lite over the past months...i looked back 6-7 weeks at Rubens Savage and how 1/2 the posts said it was du-lite and 1/2 said it wasnt....

 

im still poking around the GB 1928ac that has been identified by some/most as having a receiver thats been messed with in an attempt to mimic dulite...cold bluing i think was one of the words.......im just trying to get a handle on it

 

i looked through my AT book at various pics of 1928's and while most show a common black upper/lower finish, some pics dont...yet i assume all the pics in this book are du-lite and not messed with....page 142 is a good example

 

to me that pic looks almost identical to the GB 1928ac...i can see cross hatching/machining marks on both....

 

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/waukeshaplumbing/pix724583434_zpsdvjv5nxj.jpg

 

i do see a purplish hue (at least on my screen) inside the hole where the US was, but couldnt that just be the camera

 

when i look at some pics of this gun like when comparing the actuator on the top to the receiver the color match is pretty close...then i look at the rear sight and it looks darker and cleaner......could this lighter color just be the flash or sunlight hitting all the millions of micro scratches and machine crosshatching.....if it were sanded with steel wool wouldnt the crosshatching not be present

 

Dan Z had a good point w/ me in 1928a1's...the military stamp being clean and no bluing inside proves it isnt reblued....but in the case of a 1928AC you dont have that identifier to use...the GB gun roll marks are crisp to me, not wore down....

 

everyone seems to have differing opinions...im new and trying to get a handle on identifing du-lite and the dispute on most guns that have been shown for sale over the months........photography and flash seem to be causing much of this?

 

on the GB gun im considering.....could you guys point out which pic is a particular issue and what about it is wrong........i do see the lighter color, i do see the purple hue to the hole(US grind).........but then i look at page 142 AT and i see the exact same lighter colored upper......just want to learn and know what im missing or what to look for

 

thanks!

Edited February 11, 2016 by huggytree

[buzz]

it's hard to tell from photos what the exact color of a finish is

 

if the lighting is yellow, it throws the photo way off

 

the big giveaway with Parkerizing is that WWII Parkerizing was a gray color of various shades and the dulite was blackish

 

also, the gun is sandblasted prior to Parkerizing, so the finish looks thicker and rougher than dulite

 

dulite has a higher sheen than park and you can see the toolmarks in the metal much better

[huggytree]

i did some research into what cold bluing is.....and i do agree the GB 1928ac could have it.....if it came out too shiny they could have used steel wool to give it more of a matte finish.....and it would not have removed the cross hatching......i learned something new today about refinishing a gun....a gun with excessive wear could be cold blued and if it came out too shiny they could have used steel wool to mask it...funny the video i saw even had steel wool on the table in front of him...i knew what was coming at the end of the video

 

parkerizing is easier because of the rough texture and the loss of detail in the roll marks..

[azboater]

I have just received the ATF Stamp on my original DU-Lite Black Oxide finish Un-Re-Arsenaled Amnesty registered matching upper and lower Savage M1 Thompson,

the gun is as it was from the Factory, and never left the United States in WWII.

I will be putting a lot of photos up soon, but these two photographs shows my Re-Arsenaled Parkerized Savage/AOC mix M1 next to my Du-Lite finish Savage M1

[DZelenka]

AZBoater,

 

I have an M1 that looks almost identical to your reparked one down to the heavy sandblasting and the pin levers. Your original finish gun is beautiful. I need one like that. Congrats.

 

Dan.

[azboater]

AZBoater,

 

I have an M1 that looks almost identical to your reparked one down to the heavy sandblasting and the pin levers. Your original finish gun is beautiful. I need one like that. Congrats.

 

Dan.

Dan,

Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it, and your informative posts

Nick

[reconbob]

The best way to detect cold bluing is by the smell. The process leaves

a distinctive odor that you can smell even years after its done.

If a finish has dark spots it's usually some type of rust that has been

treated. Once a surface rusts the black oxide finish - the top layer of the

steel at a molecular level - is destroyed. Usually people clean with bronze

or copper wool to try to remove the rust without damaging adjoining surfaces.

The result when you cold blue is that the formerly rusted spots get darker

intact undamaged surfaces are not as affected and they remain lighter.

If you hot dip blue (and for the nth time the finish is black oxide and Dulite

Is a brand name of black oxide chemicals) an entire part that had light or severe

rust damage the entire piece will have a dark, even blue and then you have

to look for the signs of light scratches or very light pitting. If flaws such as this

are blue you know the part has been refinished. Maybe be not obviously

polished, but refinished. The close up picture above of the area where the

serial number is looks like a textbook example of cold bluing to me.

 

My $0.02

 

Bob

[huggytree]

thanks bob. I see those blotches. That helps me

[Tom E Gun]

Would anyone care to provide an educated guess on the finish of these guns?

 

A) M1 - my uneducated guess is Dulite:

 

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y539/MarxF350/Firearms/M1%20TSMG/IMG_6820_zpsu4tkzmi6.jpg

 

B ) M1A1 - my uneducated guess is well worn parkerizing:

 

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y539/MarxF350/Firearms/M1%20TSMG/IMG_6869_zps7rixdkno.jpg

 

C) 1928A1 - I am thinking Dulite receiver and polished blue barrel and Comp?

 

 

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y539/MarxF350/Firearms/1928A1/IMG_6885_zps3yrwvbhw.jpg

 

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y539/MarxF350/Firearms/1928A1/IMG_6879_zpsri3twfg2.jpg

Edited February 13, 2016 by Tom E Gun

[reconbob]

M1 slate grey parkerized finish.

M1A1 hard to tell from the photo. It could be parkerizing or it could

be worn bluing with patina in which case it could be the original finish.

M1928A1 standard WW2 flat blue trigger frame and receiver with other

parts having a higher polished finish. Many of the higher finish parts

are blued right off the machines, not polished as a separate operation.

These are very nice guns.

 

Bob

[buzz]

I agree with Bob

 

Including the "these are nice guns" comment

 

The M1A1 looks just a little too grey to be dulite so I'm going to say park on that one

[Tom E Gun]

Thanks Bob and Buzz;

So if the M1 is parkerized, would this mean it has been refinished?

 

Here is a closer look at the M1A1 finish, (M1 on left, M1A1 on right):

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y539/MarxF350/Firearms/M1%20TSMG/IMG_6847_zpswgafo5xk.jpg

[reconbob]

With the side by side photo the left hand gun has a blue/black oxide/dulite finish. If the finish

is not perfect - i.e. worn, visible scratches, etc. then it could be the original finish. You can dip/reblue

without polishing and when you do this you do not leave the obvious traces of polishing, rounded

corners, dulled engraving, etc.

The cliché about Thompsons is that they were all blued when originally manufactured, and this

is repeated over and over and over.

BUT, now that I think about it I think it is possible that some of the Savage guns were parkerized

at the factory. I say this because back when we had to process 700+ torched M1 and M1A1 Thompsons

only about 150 of them had a blue finish and they were all Auto-ordnance.

. The rest of them had the slate grey WW2 Parkerizing but

from the condition of the guns was so good I wonder if it could have been done at the factory.

It is possible to check this theory. The way to check this would be to remove the rear sight and see

what the finish is on the receiver underneath. If the footprint of the rear sight is blued, surrounded by

Parkerizing, then the gun was originally blued, then parkerized. If the area under the sight is in-the-white,

then the gun was parkerized at the factory.

Parkerizing was a well established finishing process by the time the M1's were made and its possible

and reasonable that Savage may have started using it. It is an easier and faster process than bluing - it

takes at least 20-30 min to blue a part (the time in the tank) but Parkerizing can be done in 5-10 minutes

depending on the steel.

I will do some checking on this - I still have some torched receivers with trigger frames still on them

but I can pull the rear sights and see what is underneath. Also, I would encourage anyone who is having

their gun rebarreled to check the finish on the receiver where the grip mount plugs in, or, if your sight

needs to be replaced what is the finish underneath.

I know that this theory rocks the boat but there is no way anyone can prove that all M1/M1A1 Thompsons

were blued at the factory at the time of manufacture. This is just being handed down from looking at

specs and contracts, etc. Nobody was on the factory floor, and nobody personally inspected 250,000 guns.

One thing that makes me think this is that many of those torched guns were in absolutely perfect condition.

 

 

Bob

[gijive]

Tom E Gun,

 

Is the M1 Thompson you show in your photos a Savage or Auto-Ordnance made gun? The M1 you show looks like black oxide to me, not Parkerizing.

[DZelenka]

Wouldn't the inspection stamps have been put on after the finish? If so an examination of the inspection stamps could reveal whether they cut through the finish or the gun was refinished at a later time.

[Tom E Gun]

Tom E Gun,

 

Is the M1 Thompson you show in your photos a Savage or Auto-Ordnance made gun? The M1 you show looks like black oxide to me, not Parkerizing.

All 3 of my Thompsons are Savages. So it sounds like from what you and Bob are saying, the M1 may be the original Dulite finish. That makes sense to me since it is numbers matching and it shows only minor wear, also I can't find any obvious nicks or damage that appear to have been refinished.

On the other hand, as DZelenka mentions, there are stamps on the M1 that would have been applied after it was finished, but there is no finish loss visible...I'm told this is a Birmingham proof mark from 2007:

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y539/MarxF350/Firearms/M1%20TSMG/IMG_6827_zpshifzrana.jpg

Edited February 13, 2016 by Tom E Gun

[DZelenka]

I would be talking about the ordnance wheel and the inspector stamp placed on the gun in the 1940s. A 2007 stamp would go through the finish unless it had been refinished since then.