Guest hardrede Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Stalinism aside, do you poster's that are screeching the most even know what a "Command Economy" is???? Methinks thouest doth protest too much! What someone does when the purchase most or all of a product is create an artificial scarcity. Then they create a monopoly on that item. Then they fleece the consumer. This is a "monopolistic" enterprise that would be illegal under normal circumstances. In this case, the "dealer" can do as he chooses, but will lose his reputation, and, hopefully, alot of money. I am not singing the "Internationale" but I think that this is typical of our new "Americanism." I get mine, sorry for you! I am just glad George Soros hasn't figured out that he could spend a fraction of his billions and buy up ALL transferrable MG's and torch em! Now that would be Capitalism at its best!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 I've been self employed running small businesses for over 25 years and I've found that there is a certain percentage of the general public that just find the thought of anyone marking up a product and making a profit off it to be repugnant. I can recall instances of being called greedy and accused of gouging for for marking up a .32 item to .35 ......in the process making a whooping .03.................true story. Scalping is whats done on street corners and is illegal in most places......what this guy is doing doesn't qualify. In the end.....if you don't like the guys price, just don't buy it! The free market system works pretty good in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hardrede Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Come to think of it, I might email ole George and tell him to buy ALL Thompson's that he can. Then torch them, so the only one left would be "Priceless!" Wow, great idea, glad I thought of it. And, I do appreciate being called a Socialist after serving my country and community for 26 years with minimal resources. Makes me proud to be an American! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif BTW Lancer, your analogy is to your business is not relevant. You bought from a distributor to provide a service or product to your community. You did this because the consumer could not afford to buy direct. (Unless it was AMWAY!) You had to pay for taxes, electric, gas, overhead, whatever. And, support yourself, family, the dog, etc. What we have here is someone with a credit card creating an artifical scarcity, (Just like .gov and 922(o)) and fleecing the unwary consumer. Not the same. I respect the small businessman and do not shop at Lowe's. I go to the local TrueValue Hardware to keep the money in town. OTOH, if TrueValue bought the nation's supply of roofing nails and charged $1000 per pound for them, I would be on the phone with my Attorney General's Consumer Complaint Division. My formerly .02 worth, now marked up to .04 because I am the only one with MY opinion, and I am raising the price! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 QUOTE (hardrede @ Mar 2 2007, 02:17 PM) BTW Lancer, your analogy is to your business is not relevant. You bought from a distributor to provide a service or product to your community. You did this because the consumer could not afford to buy direct. (Unless it was AMWAY!) You had to pay for taxes, electric, gas, overhead, whatever. And, support yourself, family, the dog, etc. The experience I told of happened when I owned a drive-thru convenience store and the item happened to be a US postage stamps that I would mark up 3 cents. They could be bought by anyone at the post office that didn't want pay me an extra 3 cents because I had them when & where they needed them. The same thing with the Crosby drums..... nobody is twisting anyone's arm to buy one at $269....... like I said, if you don't like the price......don't buy it. It seems that KEEPSHOOTING.COM is going to have an enough supply to meet demand so the dealer may have to sit on these awhile.....thats the chance he took. Free market system is a beautiful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hardrede Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Right Lancer, that is my point! I have paid .50 cents for a stamp from someone at work. I needed it, they had it, and it save waaaay more than .11 cents in diesel for the drive to US Post Office. This is a little different. You were providing a convenience or service that people need. You went out of your way to go to the Post Office and buy stamps. You incurred costs in doing so. Did you raise the price by approximately a thrid??? Did you buy ALL the stamps, or enough that the post office did not have enough to sell to people. Was the Post Office going to have to wait weeks or months to get new stamps??? These are all relevant questions in your business. In this specific case, someone bought a large quantity of a scarce item with the INTENT of over-charging after the original supply was exhausted. Apples and oranges. I do applaud you for running a convenience store. Probably in the top 5 most dangerous jobs in the country!! Have a great one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 QUOTE (hardrede @ Mar 2 2007, 03:48 PM) Right Lancer, that is my point! I have paid .50 cents for a stamp from someone at work. I needed it, they had it, and it save waaaay more than .11 cents in diesel for the drive to US Post Office. This is a little different. You were providing a convenience or service that people need. You went out of your way to go to the Post Office and buy stamps. You incurred costs in doing so. Did you raise the price by approximately a thrid??? Did you buy ALL the stamps, or enough that the post office did not have enough to sell to people. Was the Post Office going to have to wait weeks or months to get new stamps??? These are all relevant questions in your business. In this specific case, someone bought a large quantity of a scarce item with the INTENT of over-charging after the original supply was exhausted. Apples and oranges. I do applaud you for running a convenience store. Probably in the top 5 most dangerous jobs in the country!! Have a great one! You are missing my point. There are always people out there that will complain about someone profiting off of any particular item. This especially happens when customers know what the cost is of the item and doesn't seem to matter how little you mark it up. The dealer didn't buy up ALL the drums, he didn't even buy the LAST 50 available, add to that there are another 500 in the pipeline that appear are going to stay at $199. It seems that your saying that a mark-up of 33% is out of line, 33% is not unreasonable in most businesses if the market will bear it. I can assure you, if I could have marked up stamps 33% and still sold the volume of stamps I was selling, I would have done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromebolt Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Scalping is illegal because no taxes are being collected. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 QUOTE (Chromebolt @ Mar 2 2007, 04:20 PM) Scalping is illegal because no taxes are being collected. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif JFYI Any profit is illegal unless tax is paid on it... Or at least declared... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Ploughboy Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 I agree with Phil that there are certainly the good and the bad in dealers. Just take a trip through the Subguns Board Of Inquiry some time - you will see both. And that forum is only for deals made from the Subguns sales board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 hey guy's my first post on my space age puter system, i'm not even sure what it all can do yet.but the computer guy say's everything. driver's,dvd's c.ds afterburnerber's,500g.b. abd all the rest. and it let me get on to the best site which is here... we all can agree to disagree, and have fun..... the bottom line is keepshootin did us a favor here {the little guy}and got the drum's and sold them fairly.... let's say this, they bought them for $50.00 sold them for $500.00 everybody bought some here {us}then later on dumped what did not sell say a few thousand of them. to somebody on the net, and they advertised them for say $99.95........... and we all get stuck for big buck's...HOWEVER SOME WOULD NOT BE MAD BECAUSE THEY LIKE TO PAY RETAIL PLUS RIGHT? and other's would say what's up i paid too much how can they be $99.00 now? everybody has to make a little something....and i don't see anybody bashing ffl/sot's here. i've been one myself for 35 year's...a heck of alot longer then a bunch of member's on the board...it's all fun {sometime's} we should now concentrate on the future of this hobby. and be fair in all the dealing's...and not try and make every sale the only one we think we will have... i move out more stuff to past customer's then new one's. let keepshooting do what they do. and not worry about somebody who bought fifty drum's...if i had wanted to, i could have bought the entire run. AND WHY? i only needed a few, and it left a bunch for other collector's to get. i have been in it for the fun for 35 year's...as God know's it has not been for the money...however i'll be a wise old dude at the gate's of heaven saying, yep i left some for somebody else.... and to all the guy's who figure they have it all.. when you reach your expiration date.it's all nothing. have some peace in your life first. over out. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waffen Und Bier Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Okay guys. 50 drums x $200 each. That's $10,000 invested. I'd actually want a quantity break for buying that many ; ) He may not have much time and effort tied up in ordering, but he probably spent some time earning that $10,000. He also risked $10,000. I'd want a return also. I hate high prices as much as the next guy, but if someone wants them cheaper, they can shop around. There are no "lowest price guarantees" in life. I hate paying retail, but if it's something I want badly enough and it's right there (and may not be tomorrow or for quite some time to come), I'll pay it. In the machine gun (and military collectable) world, I've been happy to pay retail for something I really wanted, because I knew that retail price would be the wholesale price the next year, I'd have it in my hands to play with, and in 3-5 years it would be worth several times what I paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 QUOTE (Waffen Und Bier @ Mar 3 2007, 01:27 AM) Okay guys. 50 drums x $200 each. That's $10,000 invested. I'd actually want a quantity break for buying that many ; ) He may not have much time and effort tied up in ordering, but he probably spent some time earning that $10,000. He also risked $10,000. I'd want a return also. I hate high prices as much as the next guy, but if someone wants them cheaper, they can shop around. There are no "lowest price guarantees" in life. I hate paying retail, but if it's something I want badly enough and it's right there (and may not be tomorrow or for quite some time to come), I'll pay it. In the machine gun (and military collectable) world, I've been happy to pay retail for something I really wanted, because I knew that retail price would be the wholesale price the next year, I'd have it in my hands to play with, and in 3-5 years it would be worth several times what I paid. WAFFEN YOU ARE RIGHT in life we all may pay more for something we {really} want. do we need drum's for $200.00 not really,or even $1,000.00? nope but people still buy them. just like Thompson's for $25,000. it's all in the game of life. and for most of the world they would think us nut's for buying what we do for the price's we do.keep the history alive and the fun and spirit still in it.and that make's it worth it. when that is gone.it's time to start collecting HOT WHEEL'S! take it easy, Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClevelandShooter Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Hardere and Phil Ohio, I am confused about your feelings on the American system. Let's take the 1928 parts kits that were just here. I laid out the cash ( Yes Hardere a credit card, but you I know that the clock is ticking with those ) Cleaned them up and took them to a show at the Roberts center. There I sold them at a higher price than I paid for them. Now let's see..... I had time in sorting and cleaning them, Money in buying packaging material, pay for my table, gas to and from the show, a motel bill and food . Did I make a "profit" Yes a small one I got back home and paid off the credit card for the kits ,room and gas. But most of all I had a great weekend discussing Thompson's and other firearms, and seeing and talking with a lot of old friends there. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/soapbox.gif So after much drivel I just cannot see any rhyme or reason to your logic. But I must support and wholeheartly agree with Z3, Inertord and Mr. Todd MY .05 Bill Out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Way to go ClevelandScalper... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/hail.gif errrrr... I mean Shooter....Taking advatange of the common working man.... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/nutkick.gif You must report to the peoples tribunal! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cop.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hardrede Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Person posting above, please read the new posting rules or risk being banned. You are walking a fine line of personal attacks again and I will not tolerate abusive behavior. You are now officially and formally and publically forewarned. ClevelandShooter-you are entitled to your opinion. I am suggesting cornering the market by buying a large quantity of a scarce item, marking it up significantly, and "profiting" for nothing other than having sufficient credit to buy the original product is disingenuous and smacks of "scalping." I strongly suggest that keepshooting price these at $500 dollars so that "Thompson greed" can be thwarted. None of the scalpers is producing anything, investing any time or trouble in manufacturing anything, or even making a half-hearted attempt to understand their actions. As I said before, I would buy as many Colt Thompson's as I could and torch them, keeping only one. Then, I have created an artificial scarcity that would result in a price of "millions?" for my one and only. In other words, market forces are not at work here. It is pure "profiteering" on a level of a government contractor!!! Yes, you did buy some parts that you did not make, Cleveland. You "cleaned" them up. Took em to a gun show, and made a "profit." What did you really do?? You took advantage of the fact that some consumers are not aware that the kits are available at a lower price somewhere else. Is this approriate??? I guess if Caveat Emptor is in effect, then yes. Does it stink when keepshooting.com goes to an inordinate amount of trouble to provide a reasonably priced product, that works, to the shooting public. Yes, it stinks like rotten fish! They incurred a great deal of time, trouble, legal and other expenses to provide a great product. The first batch wasn't even out the door and they were being taken advantage of by a "dealer." Nice. And, from a historical perspective, this is NOT the American system! The robber-barons of the late 19th and early 20th Century that controlled the factors of production and screwed people over were put to heel by LAWS that prevented this kind of thing. The "American" system, as you so describe, is really based upon theft and profiteering to begin with. Landowners in this country are merely in possession of "Amnesty Registered" Native American property. They then "profiteer" at the expense of all when they "develop" the land at public cost. (See "Infrastructure, roads, sewer, water, etc.) Hence my dislike and distrust of real estate "agents." But, you are entitled to do what you want, with whom you want. As long as you can sleep at night, that is what really counts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 QUOTE (hardrede @ Mar 3 2007, 03:34 PM) Person posting above, please read the new posting rules or risk being banned. You are walking a fine line of personal attacks again and I will not tolerate abusive behavior. You are now officially and formally and publically forewarned. I've attacked no one that I know of..... So no risk here.... Unless you wish to name names. Sit back relax and enjoy your drum..... But thanks for the forwarning on your part, Nic will appreciate that you're doing your part.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClevelandShooter Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 QUOTE (hardrede @ Mar 3 2007, 03:34 PM)Person posting above, please read the new posting rules or risk being banned. You are walking a fine line of personal attacks again and I will not tolerate abusive behavior. You are now officially and formally and publicly forewarned. ClevelandShooter-you are entitled to your opinion. I am suggesting cornering the market by buying a large quantity of a scarce item, marking it up significantly, and "profiting" for nothing other than having sufficient credit to buy the original product is disingenuous and smacks of "scalping." I strongly suggest that keepshooting price these at $500 dollars so that "Thompson greed" can be thwarted. None of the scalpers is producing anything, investing any time or trouble in manufacturing anything, or even making a half-hearted attempt to understand their actions. As I said before, I would buy as many Colt Thompson's as I could and torch them, keeping only one. Then, I have created an artificial scarcity that would result in a price of "millions?" for my one and only. In other words, market forces are not at work here. It is pure "profiteering" on a level of a government contractor!!! Yes, you did buy some parts that you did not make, Cleveland. You "cleaned" them up. Took em to a gun show, and made a "profit." What did you really do?? You took advantage of the fact that some consumers are not aware that the kits are available at a lower price somewhere else. Is this appropriate??? I guess if Caveat Emptor is in effect, then yes. Does it stink when keepshooting.com goes to an inordinate amount of trouble to provide a reasonably priced product, that works, to the shooting public. Yes, it stinks like rotten fish! They incurred a great deal of time, trouble, legal and other expenses to provide a great product. The first batch wasn't even out the door and they were being taken advantage of by a "dealer." Nice. And, from a historical perspective, this is NOT the American system! The robber-barons of the late 19th and early 20th Century that controlled the factors of production and screwed people over were put to heel by LAWS that prevented this kind of thing. The "American" system, as you so describe, is really based upon theft and profiteering to begin with. Landowners in this country are merely in possession of "Amnesty Registered" Native American property. They then "profiteer" at the expense of all when they "develop" the land at public cost. (See "Infrastructure, roads, sewer, water, etc.) Hence my dislike and distrust of real estate "agents." But, you are entitled to do what you want, with whom you want. As long as you can sleep at night, that is what really counts! hardrede, First and foremost I take Z3's post as a compliment, and since it is directed to me please refrain from giving me your feelings on a post between myself and Z3. Second, Keep shooting.com made their opening statement that they "We were able to purchase 200 drums, and do not know if we will be offered them again. Production run was ran for another buyer, and we piggybacked onto it." . So they are guilty by your standards of Scalping?????? Third though you berate the secondary market you have no problem with the primary, why is that. There were 3 or 4 major players that got in on the Thompson kits. What was there margin??? I do not know nor do I care. I know that the kits that i got were made available to others that might not have known about them otherwise. So I sleep well when someone gets what they want and I get what I want. See I am a Purchasing professional, and the term is Win-Win. I work with distributors every day that sell me products that they have added no value to. But they represent the manufacturer and get the product out in the market. Once our volume gets large enough I work to go direct with the manufacturer. A little business 101 and harderde, well you might understand. No one has been" taken " so you just dumbfound me with your view. And let me be the first to say that your welcome to have any opinion you wish. Bill Out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 I was just catching up on today's posts and thinking that from a historical prospective, Russell Maguire and George Numrich must have been the first Thompson Scalpers, when they cornered The Thompson Market and first started selling off the products manufactured by the respective companies that came before them. At any rate agree or disagree, it was all a good read up untill the suggestion of the distributor raising the price of Current Production Crosby Drum to $500.00 and then buying up all but one of the Colt Thompson's for destruction to protect us from ourselves. Kind of turned into the script of a kooky 70's British Sitcom (Headache). Agree or disagree, it was nice to have a debate amongst gentleman, especially Thompson Historians, Dealers, Restorers, Collectors and Aficionados' and the likes. Oh well, off to check out the John Wayne Prop Thompson and 21A Parts Kit . Thanks guys http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 Phil you know what it is, the rapist's,murderer's, child pervert's,and con artist's and scammer's in prison have rationalized even thier deed's, we have a great board here..... and alot of the mumbo jumbo started from some post's here on myself....then everybody kinda piled on. if those would have met me in person{ with my wonderful love all mankind mannerism} not much would have become of it. however if it would have been the 1960's, biker type, Marine, south side chicago street wiseguy mannerism....the outcome would have been different. however i have grown and learned to let thing's somehow pass....as bitterness and revenge just after awhile tear's at your soul. i am sad to report a few in the past that i had some problem's with are now passed away. and nothing can ever be said to ease that pain.however Earl and Perry and myself worked thing's out. sometime's on the board's we get a little too excited to knock somebody down quickly.and stomp on them. of course in person it alway's would be a different outcome. otherwise gun show's would be slaugherhouse's. but in a supposed civilized society that should never happen. everybody should just try and keep rude comment's, to themself...{ i know i will try}or take it to e-mail or private message. this way we don't clog the board with b.s. and gripe's/ i told NICK i would moderate here if needed.{ and some might think that's like the fox watching the henhouse} however a sly fox or wise old owl never hurt's/wink! darn i used that trademark signal again. maybe a 60's peace sign would be better.wonk! anyway's you have good comment's and post's. and alway's do it with respect. which some around here should practice.{ and that go's for everybody including myself} if anybody has ever gotten a e-mail from me i alway's watch my tongue.and those who have and used some choice word's. {i LAUGH} because in person it would never happen.since i'm a mild mannered guy. anyway's guy's let's start off fresh...2007 should be a good year.and 2008 who know's we have to make it good. for the betterment of the hobby. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif R. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 OW! Those bus tires really hurt! No matter what this was a great thread with some really good discussion.... A little thompson supply and demand group discussion it's all good.... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif Last post to this thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 QUOTE (Z3BigDaddy @ Mar 5 2007, 01:19 AM) OW! Those bus tires really hurt! No matter what this was a great thread with some really good discussion.... A little thompson supply and demand group discussion it's all good.... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif yes all good...even the rough spot's had some easy spot's.now on to the next Thompson item..... maybe colt era drum's on the horizon or?? who know's....mill's marked cloth kit's. or $5.00 20 rd mag's. R. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgfa4ever Posted March 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Almost feel as though I should be the one offering an apology, its was me that started this thread, bringing something to the attention of others, voicing a couple of opinions, and then sitting back and wondering what the heck happened! While I was forwarned about the various personalities on this forum and being new to this arena, perhaps I should have chosen the topics that I post more carefully as to not get so many so upset with each other, it certainly was not my intent to ruffle the feathers of so many whereby those that were ruffled went after each other. My very first visit to this forum was not a plesant one, it was right about the time that Nick came down with the warning to members about personal attacks and what not, I thought good idea, but personally the only fair way to handle things is to expell all parties involved, not just one because a finger is pointed at them, it takes at least two to tangle. My original intent for joining this board was to gather information and learn, weapons that carry the Thompson markings have always been a personal favorite of mine, I did not join it to be talked down to, ignored, or to create hate and discontent between other members nor do I feel as some that I have to always have the last word on everything. I've had my checkbook open for the past couple of weeks awaiting word from Nick as to what a decent dollar amount would be to help support this forum and board, however at this time I think that I will close it and perhaps re-open it at a later date. One last thing, I get the impression that a lot of the members on this forum are older than myself, I'm 49 for those that wonder, but remember it is the younger generations that will either keep the Thompson tradition and history alive or allow it to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 sgfa4ever Don't concern your self with the 3 or 4 "unique" personalities around here, they add a little character to the board, juvenile thou they may be at times. I've learned so much here in the last few years that it's well worth the donations I've sent Nick. Hang in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromebolt Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 sqfa4ever: I too am fairly new to the forum and have noticed several individuals use any opportunity to tangle with each other. I try to ignore the juvenile behavior. But it does get old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balder Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Bye Thompson board. If anybody wants to join in on setting up a board dealing with Thompsons, feel free to contact me. No politics, micro/macro economics or personal vendettas. Other boards have managed just that. It should be possible with Thompsons as well. Balder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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