How to convince dealer that the trigger housing is parts?

[ppgcowboy]

I talked with the ATF agent last week and she asked the home office if it was ok to take the trigger housing home along with the furniture and leave the receiver and barrel. After a week she contacted me and was told it would be OK. I went went to the dealer to pick it up and he wanted to hear from the ATF agent that it was OK. I pulled out my phone and dialed her and she talked with him. He hung up and after telling her that he would like to have a copy of the page that says it is ok. So he tells me he is waiting for her to give him that information. Can anyone point me to an NFA regulation bookor something that can put this guy at ease? I seriously know I have picked the wrong dealer to handle this for me. He has no understanding what a Thompson is, what is parts and what is registered. How do I convince him with him without him trying to throw another monkey wrench in the transfer process. What reference can I point him to?

[ppgcowboy]

This is what I am trying to get home. Sorry for the bad photo but the light sucks in the shop, and I want to get it under my studio lights. This is in my Fox Alabama case. It is beautiful.

[ppgcowboy]

Here is another photo.

[cubguy]

Have him look on GB, many lowers on there for sale with no problem or paperwork required

[USMC0802]

Man, sorry to hear of the continued problems with this guy. You may be out of luck on getting the lower if he's being that silly about it. I don't know if there would be a specific document out there that would say "for Colt Thompson Submachine Guns, the serialized lower receiver is not considered a restricted item and may be released before transfer is approved." It almost sounds like this guy is gonna want something that ridiculously specific.

 

 

If it were me, I'd just grab the mags, actuator, bolt, and buffer so as to not worry about it taking any unauthorized trips to the range on Saturday afternoon while it's still in his custody. Guy sounds like a real bozo.

[mnshooter]

 

If it were me, I'd just grab the mags, actuator, bolt, and buffer so as to not worry about it taking any unauthorized trips to the range on Saturday afternoon while it's still in his custody. Guy sounds like a real bozo.

 

 

And while you're there, thread a cable gun lock through the ejection port.

Use the wait time to find another dealer for future transfers.

[ppgcowboy]

I can assure you no more business will be done there. He is the closest to me. Next one 80 miles from me. I just do not understand it.

[OCM]

Can't remember, correct me if I'm off, but does the dealer actually own the gun during the transfer to the next owner. It's transferred to him, then he transfers it to you, the new owner for the long wait.

Sounds like a pissing match has started/continued, this is why I ask above here. Also might take the Fox case home, leave it with a temp hard case.

Can he say " I own the gun for now, this is how it's going to be" ? If you prove him wrong, he's really going to be pissed off, not that he can do anything, but will add more brain damage for the 8 (?) month wait for you.

[Black River Militaria CII]

Ownership is legally conferred by payment only and registration is not evidence of ownership. The dealer has temporary registration of the gun for legal transfer to the actual owner. Dealer has no ownership rights.

The receiver is regarded as the legal "firearm" for virtually all firearms, Title I and Title II, and the dealer should know this as a firearms business owner. In the NFA world, some firearms are regulated by the lower receiver, M16, H&K, etc, but not the Thompson.

The buyer of this Thompson might find and buy a sturdy storage container that the cased gun will fit into, take it to the dealer and put the gun In it and lock it up.

Fighting with this dealer is a waste of time, in my opinion, and he is unwilling to learn the rules of his trade. His ignorance appears to be his source of power and he likes his power.

[Waffen Und Bier]

I don't separate parts from guns. This is especially critical with matching numbered parts. Hypothetically, I send matching numbered lower and bolt assy to buyer. it gets lost in transit. No longer have a matching gun in play. Or what if I send the parts and transfer doesn't go through for whatever reason. Now buyer has my parts and loses them, sells them, dumb wife throws them away - I'm still pissed at my ex over that one). To me, it's just cleaner sending the whole gun at one time. But that's just me. YMMV.

[TSMGguy]

Why not just be patient and wait for the transfer to go through? If the dealer doesn't want to separate things, then that's just the way he wants to do business.

[ppgcowboy]

Why not just be patient and wait for the transfer to go through? If the dealer doesn't want to separate things, then that's just the way he wants to do business.

That may be what I have to do. But here is my main concern, It has been with him since January, and not for one minute has is been placed in a safe. It sits next to his desk in a case. I would rather have the colt parts I can have sitting in my safe. I am not trying to rock his boat but all of a sudden things got real weird. Then when he gave me the paper work in a sealed envelope to mail he did not sign them. Yes, I dropped the ball and should have gone over everything before I mailed them. I think he enjoys having a colt Thompson in his shop and have not had to lay out one dime. I know I made the mistake by picking him, but???? You live you learn I guess.

[geefal]

Here is why you separate parts (no offense to Waffen und Bier) so they (the dealer) no longer have a complete one.

 

Purchased matching MP40 from really really well known well recommended dealer, and when I say well known, every single person on here would recognize the name and may even have done business with him. Everyone raves about his great service.

 

I am not going to name the person because I don't want anyone to think the story is a personal grudge thing.

 

As no one is named here I have no reason to make this up.

 

When the MP40 was received, the cocking handle had been broke off (completely missing), the rear sight had been broken, the front muzzle nut had been misthreaded on so forcefully it had the threads completely screwed up and the sling was missing. All of this stuff was correct when the gun was advertised as the photos clearly showed a cocking handle, the sling was listed as to be for sale with the gun and the muzzle nut was completely and correctly screwed back to the sight as it should be.

 

When I complained, he sent the sling and an aftermarket cocking knob. When I complained again, was left a nice voicemail that informed me no one would believe the story as he had such a stellar reputation and basically tough sh*t.

 

So yeah, from now on, everything that is not a registered part (or basically permanently attached to the receiver) gets sent to me when the forms get sent to me to initiate the transfer. Don't want to do that? Fine, my money goes elsewhere. Non freaking negotiable.....

 

And I mean this guy, if you asked on Subguns or anywhere else, everyone would say he would be a recommended dealer. And again to Waffen und Bier, as I did NOT separate the parts, because he had the chance to play with it and abuse it while in his possession, now it is no longer a matching gun. So that goes both ways

Edited April 20, 2016 by geefal

[Waffen Und Bier]

I meant as a seller, I wouldn't separate parts. As a buyer, if you are able to get the seller to do so, then by all means. I've been f'ed by a couple of those "I've been in the business over 30 years" guys myself and I shite on their name everytime someone asks about them.

 

Once I sell a gun, it gets oiled and locked away in the safe. I will probably never buy another machine gun sight unseen. I've known and have been friends with my local dealers for 15-30 years. They keep my purchases in their safes and don't play with them or shoot them. It helps that I work for my current dealer now.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Waffen Und Bier

[TSMGguy]

 

Why not just be patient and wait for the transfer to go through? If the dealer doesn't want to separate things, then that's just the way he wants to do business.

That may be what I have to do. But here is my main concern, It has been with him since January, and not for one minute has is been placed in a safe....

That's certainly different. Your purchase should be protected at all times!

[shadowman]

That may be what I have to do. But here is my main concern, It has been with him since January, and not for one minute has is been placed in a safe. It sits next to his desk in a case. I would rather have the colt parts I can have sitting in my safe. I am not trying to rock his boat but all of a sudden things got real weird. Then when he gave me the paper work in a sealed envelope to mail he did not sign them. Yes, I dropped the ball and should have gone over everything before I mailed them. I think he enjoys having a colt Thompson in his shop and have not had to lay out one dime. I know I made the mistake by picking him, but???? You live you learn I guess.

 

Wow. When I started the thread, I thought you just had the bad luck to choose an ignorant / stubborn dealer, but I now think this is

something else... he wants to display, play with, and possibly fire your property. (yes it's absolutely your property, even if it's

in his custody for the time being). Not signing the transfer paperwork sounds like it was intentional (e.g., trying to create an extra 6+ month

delay before you figured things out).

 

The local dealers I use are exceptionally respectful of purchases in the $XX,XXX range.

 

My $0.02--

 

- Obviously-- Never use this guy again, even if you do have to drive 80+ miles for another dealer.

- Take home every last part he will let you-- too bad about the lower, but it'll still be hard to fire with

no bolt, etc. If possible, wrap the barrelled receiver in bubble-wrap and take home the fancy case, too.

- Remind him that he's responsible if it's stolen, etc. Tell him what you paid for a transferrable (if he doesn't

know already). Tell him you want it in his safe.

- Going forward: get all the non-registered parts shipped directly to you (*though for a Thompson, leaving the barrel

in the receiver is probably the better move). I respect those who see things differently, but that really doesn't

matter-- once it's my gun, it's going to be done my way. I negotiate this in a written purchase agreement

before any money changes hands; as stated above, if the seller doesn't like this, I'll find another.

 

Sorry to hear about your trouble, but I've learned that in the Class III world, you can't be careful

or thorough enough, unfortunately.

 

SM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Merry Ploughboy]

Sounds like a situation where, if you have a CLEO who would sign off, you'd have been better off to get a Curio & Relic license and have it shipped directly from the seller to you. Then if you wanted it in a trust, spend the additional $200 and transfer from yourself to your trust.

 

I hope it all works out.

[ppgcowboy]

Sounds like a situation where, if you have a CLEO who would sign off, you'd have been better off to get a Curio & Relic license and have it shipped directly from the seller to you. Then if you wanted it in a trust, spend the additional $200 and transfer from yourself to your trust.

 

I hope it all works out.

That makes complete sense to me. I am going to do that. I have another dealer that I will use for non C&R guns. Wishing I had gone that route now.

[The Lone Ranger]

 

I agree with BRMC - likely wasting your time with a person who is timid and uninformed. He will likely burrow in deeper. To OCM's question, the NFA does not regulate ownership, only possession. (same for GCA). Any non licensee that obtains a firearm from an out of state source sees the same scenario - a firearm not owned by a dealer is in that dealer's possession until the transfer is allowable be that 6 minutes for GCA or 6 months for NFA.

 

The suggestion of locking a cable through it seems reasonable - may hinder tampering/joyriding to the point it's not worth the effort but then maybe he's not evil, just scared?

[wwiifirearms]

Here you go, staight from the ATF, page 11 clearly list that for all Thompson models, the Upper is the NFA controlled part

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download

Edited April 21, 2016 by wwiifirearms

[ppgcowboy]

Here you go, staight from the ATF, page 11 clearly list that for all Thompson models, the Upper is the NFA controlled part

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download

Thank you, thank you, thank you, that should do it. I have been spending hours looking for this and have not been able to find it. Tomorrow I am back to the shop. Again I am not trying to prove this guy wrong as it will only make him dig his heals in. I am just trying to educate future members here to help them make their road to nirvana more simple and not go through what I am currently going through. Number one, have all non registered parts sent to your personally. Thanks again to all who have contributed. I will let you know how it goes.

[wwiifirearms]

Good luck.

Happy to help. Hope it works.

[Waffen Und Bier]

No offense taken. In fact, I misunderstood the situation.. The dealer isn't the seller, just the go between acting on behalf of the buyer. I understand the end purchaser's concerns now.

[Paladin601]

 

If it were me, I'd just grab the mags, actuator, bolt, and buffer so as to not worry about it taking any unauthorized trips to the range on Saturday afternoon while it's still in his custody. Guy sounds like a real bozo.

 

 

And while you're there, thread a cable gun lock through the ejection port.

Use the wait time to find another dealer for future transfers.

Not really. I have dealt with a few Dealers who will not honor C&R licenses or Calif certificates of Eligiability. In fact a few have told me that a agent could come in personally and tell me it is okay and they still would not honor them.

 

Also been given bad info by the Calif DOJ on C&R transfers. ATF has been pretty good.

 

so there is a lot of mis understanding out there on gun laws

[Paladin601]

I talked with the ATF agent last week and she asked the home office if it was ok to take the trigger housing home along with the furniture and leave the receiver and barrel. After a week she contacted me and was told it would be OK. I went went to the dealer to pick it up and he wanted to hear from the ATF agent that it was OK. I pulled out my phone and dialed her and she talked with him. He hung up and after telling her that he would like to have a copy of the page that says it is ok. So he tells me he is waiting for her to give him that information. Can anyone point me to an NFA regulation bookor something that can put this guy at ease? I seriously know I have picked the wrong dealer to handle this for me. He has no understanding what a Thompson is, what is parts and what is registered. How do I convince him with him without him trying to throw another monkey wrench in the transfer process. What reference can I point him to?

Could be he is shooting it while you are gone and w/o the trigger frame he can no longer do that