Home Guard Case Study

[gijive]

Would "stowage" be kind of a unique phrase to use for something put aboard a ship and kept there?

Dan

 

Dan,

 

Although the word stowage is sometimes unique to shipboard storage, the definition can mean any type of storage facility or a fee charged for storing an item. I think the term on the Thompson cases was for locking the cases during transit (whether by sea, air or land) or for long term storage.

[koldt]

Dan, a couple of pictures of a British Home Guard case. I'll let you assign a "number" to it. I have it in my reference file pictures as "Koldt". Note the stenciled lettering on top of the case.

 

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/roopsahl/t20case1_KoldtMGB158.jpg

 

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/roopsahl/t20case2Koldt158.jpg

Ross

 

The reference to koldt is appropriate, cause the case is in my gun room.

 

I contacted Cogswell and Harrison and they clarified the name and address stenciled on the box. It is:

Cogswell & Harrison Cannon Works Bollo Lane Acton London W3 England

 

They supplied a very nice letter on company letter head, but stated they did so much stuff during the war, they had no record or recollection of these boxes.

 

[hughlong]

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/roopsahl/t20case1_KoldtMGB158.jpg

If you look at the photo Ross posted of this case, you will see the extra screw on the handle plate, but it your answer could be correct too.

Dan

 

 

I see that now Dan and believe that you are correct. Did case #2 have the same 5 hole handle? or was it a 4 hole one?

[deerslayer]

case 2 was 4 hole

[JTinIN]

Thanks for the information and photos of the inside of the box.

 

Always found interesting what the Brit's had to go through trying to arm the home guard plus put up some type of defense,

after loosing so much equipment with the evaluation of the BEF and have worked to disarm the general populace.

 

Home Guard Pocket Manual

Edited December 3, 2009 by JTinIN

[Bridgeport28A1]

Dan, my British Home Guard case is stamping Nicholls & Janes 1940 into the wood located on the right right end panel. I asked long time RKI member Mk VII in a private message:

 

Mk VII, I have a reference book British Small Arms of World War 2 by Ian Skennerton. On page 88 of the Contractor Code listings, Nicholls & James, St. Mary's St. Mary's St., High Wycombe, Buck is listed.

 

Was there both a Nicholls & Janes and Nicholls & James? Skennerton notes on page 77 that "Minor clerical errors in some names, addresses and firm styles have been noted, but those generally come from the official record books.

 

A quick Google search doesn't provide much information other than High Wycombe, Buck was a furniture making region.

 

Any information you could share or provide on them would be greatly appreciated.

 

Long time RKI member Mk VII PM reply to me was:

 

It appears to be a paperwork error. http://www.achome.co.uk/antiques/furniture_research.htm contains a reference to Nicholls & Janes at 12 St Mary's St. and an Eric Janes, who went to Royal Grammar School, Guildford, has an obit in the RGS Old Boys Newsletter as having worked at the family firm in 1939/40. Such errors must have been common with handwritten ledgers and people passing information verbally.

 

I looked at the web address provided in Mk VII reply and the following information about Nicholls & Janes was found.

Nicholls and Janes 12 St Mary's St 1888-1952/3 (all refs in between) 35 Queens Rd 1956-68

Used to be partly in old Wesleyan chapel. Moved to Queen's Rd 1958. Sold to Warmcelite 1968, but will carry on furniture making. High reputation for carving. Moved 1958 because of building of College. Est 1868 as partnership between Allan Janes & bro-in-law Mr Nicholls, before that Janeses were bodgers at Penn. Still employed bound apprentices in 1950s. P, D, O

 

If one gets a magnifying glass out and reads the print on the British government drawing for the "Home Guard cases" found in Tracie L. Hill's The Ultimate Thompson book. The drawing lists size of wood board allowable and wood joints that are allowable for construction. It mentions a change in location of "batting" from the bottom of the case to the top of the case. It also contains the wording to be stenciled on the cases and the location of the manufacturers marking is to be located.

 

Ross

 

edit, fixed an error reference contents of British drawing in The Ultimate Thompson.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Bridgeport28A1

[hughlong]

What model of thompson smg would the british have used with the Home Guard Cases....would it have been some of the early Colt Thompsons purchased by the british or later Savage or AO lend lease guns? Would they have been british marked?

[Mk VII]

The residue of the remaining Colt guns plus the early Savage ones.

 

http://www.fototime.com/88C8834B56F16D8/standard.jpg

[deerslayer]

Ross, What variety of woods are "allowable" on the blueprint?

Dan

[Mk VII]

Beautility Furniture Ltd. has now surfaced as a contractor for other weapon chests, as well as Slazenger.

[Bridgeport28A1]

To my count there has been five original cases that have had information or photographs shared with the board.

 

Is that all there is that is known to board members or guests?

 

Are the Home Guard cases more scarce than an original spare parts box, more scarce than a Police or F.B.I. case? Or were the war surplus cases simply used in the fire pit to roast hot dogs during the 50's & 60's or used to heat the house in the wood stove?

 

There just has to be more original cases out there in collections?

 

If anybody has any other pictures or information about any original cases please share them, if you don't want to post the information on the forum please consider sharing the information with Deerslayer in a private message so that a sticky thread that he is working on may be as accurate as possible.

 

Ross

 

 

 

 

[hughlong]

Attached are some pictures of case 1 and case 2 that Dan Block restored for me. He is a real craftsman and does great work.

 

Case 1 was missing its original top handle and Dan was able to supply a current manufactured stanley handle that fits the original mounting hole spacing exactly, but the handle shape is not consistent with the original british made handle. I have been able to find a new, old stock, british handle that i have enroute and which i will use to replace the stanley handle....just dumb luck in finding that.

 

The interior work is first class. I am very happy with the work.

 

Also is attached a picture of the british handle i found

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2010 by hughlong

[billie32]

next time i'm at my parents house, i'll have to have a look at my case. it's all original, completely unrestored. i'll try and get some pictures of it too. been meaning to do it for awhile now, just always seems to slip my mind when i'm up there. perhaps i'll just have my father bring it down to the office tomorrow as we're a bit snowed in here and he's got a much better vehicle for this type of weather

[Charlie Erb]

Received 2 home guard cases for restoration work today, they were interesting and I dug out my photos from other cases I've seen, one in person, and two from photos.

 

Case 1 and 2 just came from a collector (and are the ones I'm restoring), The "gun show" case I've only seen in pictures, Case 3 I've personally seen from another collector and was the model I used in my reproductions, and the case labeled "tracy" I believe was displayed at a thompson collectors show.

 

Case 1 was the most interesting to see as it breaks the "rules" seen in the other cases. A different type of wood, and different size dovetails, and made by joining narrower boards. I'm guessing case 1 is made from pine, while the others appear to be the luan (a type of mahogony).

 

No shown, but case 1 and the gun show case did not have printing on top. The "tracy" case had printng on top as did case #3.

 

Case 2 and 3 have been repainted at some time in the past. Case 3 having 3 different coats I seem to recall. So if they did have printing on top, it is difficult to tell.

 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/4386526/aview/5_cases.JPG

Looking at the ends and the dove tails, there were two basic sizes evidenced by the number of dovetails.

 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/4386526/aview/case_fronts.JPG

And we now have three different painting fonts on the front.

 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/4386526/aview/case_ends.JPG

and two on the ends (oriented the opposite direction...) (don't have and end view of the "tracy case".

 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/4386526/aview/inside_cases.JPG

The lumber in these cases appears to be the same in 4 or them, with the one case appearing to be made from a pine type wood, and also made by joining boards together (notice the seam in "case 1") instead of one wide board.

 

Enjoy the photos and if anybody out there has a vintage case, please post a photo or comparison.

 

I'm planning one more batch of cases to make. It may be the last batch as hardward is going to be tough to get.

Dan

Hi Dan,

Im interested in one of your cases, would like to buy one or more of your Repro Home Guard cases, let me know if you have made any more or are going to make some more Thanks Charlie Erb Dedham Maine (Balad Iraq)

[OLD RSM]

Hi Guy's

Where did the name Home Guard come from for the Chest. All British Wpns had a Chest Rifles came in 10 per Chest 1 Snipet Rifle per Chest 1 Bren Gun 1 Vickers Gun 1 Thompson SMG etc. The Soldier had a rifle when he was going out on OPS turned in the rifle and was issued the Bren Gun Vickers Thompsun etc and the chest stayed in the QM store.

Cheers Gerry

 

[dalbert]

All,

 

I received a FedEx package from Italy today that contained a new Thompson item for my collection. It's a "Home Guard" Thompson chest that was used by an Italian Police Department for their TSMG. I want to sincerely thank TD for letting me know about this item. I like it a lot!

 

So, here are some pictures of my new chest to add this previous thread on the subject. It's in very good condition, and I think the inside is particularly well preserved. It includes several removable, small wooden spacers in some of the compartments that may have been added by the PD to prevent rattling. I also noticed that the inside, bottom board has "Jan 40" painted on it. The side is stamped "Nichols & Janes" and "1940" with a Broad Arrow mark below it. The chest was repainted at some point, and there are some markings on the back that were painted over, and are very hard to read. I will attempt to analyze it, and perhaps do a charcoal rubbing on paper to see if I can tell what it says.

 

This item goes very well with the 3 Italian Thompson manuals I have in my collection.

 

Here are pictures of the case:

 

Front:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Chest/MoschettoChestFront_Web.JPG

 

Top:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Chest/MoschettoChestTop_Web.JPG

 

Back:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Chest/MoschettoChestBack_Web.JPG

 

Bottom:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Chest/MoschettoChestBottom_Web.JPG

 

Side:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Chest/MoschettoChestSide_Web.JPG

 

Inside:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Chest/MoschettoChestInside_Web.JPG

 

Nichols & Janes Marking:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Chest/MoschettoChestNicholsJanes_Web.JPG

 

1940 & Broad Arrow Mark:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Chest/MoschettoChest1940BroadArrow_Web.JPG

 

I welcome any comments on this item. I am excited to add it to my collection.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner]

I want one! TD, next time call me! How would this case get to Italy? Post war I assume.

[dalbert]

I want one! TD, next time call me! How would this case get to Italy? Post war I assume.

 

Roland, Headless Thompson Gunner,

 

Yeah, I lucked out. Thanks again, Tom!

 

There had to have been a British/Italian connection once Italy was invaded during WWII. I think this is a story in relation to Thompson that is yet to be detailed. The 3 Italian Thompson manuals that I have are all based on Britsh Small Arms Training Manuals for the TSMG.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[deerslayer]

Excellent! Yours appears to have the little loose block of wood in the right most side where the XX mags were kept. Are their other loose pieces I can't detect in the photo? Also, looks like you are missing the cover for the spare parts compartment on the right.

 

I could make another run of these.

Dan

[Bridgeport28A1]

David, congratulations on your Home Guard case. The Home Guard case I previously owned had a loose wood block for one of the XX box magazine compartments. I have not seen another case that has the two additional pieces of wood on the bottom of the case.

 

Your Nicholls & Janes stamping appears to be a different font than the stamping on my ex-case also had a Broad Arrow along with a 1940 date. An earlier post in this thread contains some information on Nicholls and Janes from a member from England.

 

Ross

[dalbert]

Excellent! Yours appears to have the little loose block of wood in the right most side where the XX mags were kept. Are their other loose pieces I can't detect in the photo? Also, looks like you are missing the cover for the spare parts compartment on the right.

 

I could make another run of these.

Dan

 

Dan,

 

The spare parts compartment cover was there...it was what I thought was a spacer that can be seen in the second drum compartmentin my original post. There were 2 other loose pieces of wood inside, both veneers, so extremely thin. I'm not sure if they were supposed to be spacers. or what. I have included a picture of them below, as well as a picture of the parts compartment with the lid in place, and the lid locking latch down.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Chest/SpareParts_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Chest/Spacers_Web.JPG

 

By the way, I have added a link and description of this topic to the Thompson Reference Thread Index at the top of the board.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[Mk VII]

My recent research in the British archives turned up the following:- An additional supplier, the Educational Supply Association, (ESA) whose products included school furniture which I recall in school in the '60s and '70s.

There is also an order for 5000 placed in India (maker unrecorded).

 

The initial contract price (which varied somewhat between batches and makers) was nineteen shillings and eightpence ha'penny, subsequently amended to 19/9d.

 

The totals (in various batches) are:-

 

Nichols & James 24,601 (including 48 contract overruns which the Ministry took anyway)

Harris Lebus 17,000

ESA 16,400

India 5000

 

for a total of 63,051.

 

The file page concludes with a note dated 26th June 1941 saying "it is understood that these guns are now regarded as personal equipment and chests are not now required".

 

Knowing something about the British Army from having done some time in it, this explains why these things were procured in the first place. Unit weapons, which the TSMG was regarded as initially, get a storage/transit chest because they are nobody's personal responsibility - they get issued to whoever-signs for-it-this-time and live in the armoury when the working day comes to an end. Also they have a set of ancillaries (magazines, rod, spares) which need to be kept with it. Lewis guns and Brens and Vickers also had chests, and the Boys a/t rifle, though I've never seen the apparently coffin-like chest for these.

 

I think we need to discard any ideas of these being special to Home Guard.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Mk VII

[dalbert]

Mk VII,

 

Very good, new information! Thank you for your research on this subject.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[rpbcps]

Listed for sale with two deactivated Thompsons, (M1/M1A1), in the UK, transit case designed to carry two M1 / M1A1's with 10 x 20 round magazines. Too expensive for me, but is nice.

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited October 11, 2012 by rpbcps

[rpbcps]

I have seen the attached photo before, but until now, never noticed the caption and the transit cases in the background.

 

The caption reads: "Thompson submachine guns, or "Tommy guns", being un-crated at an ordnance depot in the UK after their arrival from the US through the lend-lease scheme, 23 March 1942."

 

 

However, these transit cases bear no resemblance to the transit cases that this post originally refers too.

 

 

Stay safe

Richard