Winchester Model 1907 In .351 - Law Enforcement & Outlaw Firepower

[jim c 351]

Jim-

Since you know my thumb issues, it's a bitch to lock my 351 open with the operating sleeve- This one has been restored, my last one was old, original. Maybe it's age now, but, any tricks, like the spring in the 28N ?

I was making my young nephew put flies on my fly rod while we were fishing ( old eyes), he's getting tired of taking care of the Uncle, now this .Haaaa.

 

Sandy

Sandy,

My 07 is the later style with the hook on the operating rod, rather than the button type on your 07.

The hook makes mine easier to rotate, using my trigger finger of either hand.

My advise to you is,--always bring your nephew.

Jim C

[jl7422]

As stout as the springs are in the factory Winchester 10 rnd. mags. I have, I doubt a simple stripper clip arrangement could be made to work reliably. It's all I can do to load the full 10 in mine.

[jim c 351]

As stout as the springs are in the factory Winchester 10 rnd. mags. I have, I doubt a simple stripper clip arrangement could be made to work reliably. It's all I can do to load the full 10 in mine.

A stripper clip will not work because of the way a stripper clip is designed to work and the way the 07 mag is designed to work.

That is not to say a loading tool couldn't be invented.

Jim C

[ron_brock]

Glad to see this brought up again (see the book forum where I just posted a review of a new book on the 07).

 

Cool to see the Police Rifle ad. I would like to find one with the bayonet mount still in place (wonder how many were produced and survived). It is interesting that they created the mount for the Krag bayonet (also the 1923 Military Thompson), but I suppose that during the time that the gun was produced there were plenty of these in stores as government surplus.

 

- Ron

[The Jackrabbit]

On the Nelson battle at Barrington, in their book Baby Face Nelson: Portrait of a Public Enemy by Steven Nickel and William J. Helmer, they state that Nelson fired a .351 rifle, they claim that Chase said this and that ballistics confirmed it.

If this issue has been resolved on the board and I missed it, what can I say...I missed it.

[OCM]

On the Nelson battle at Barrington, in their book Baby Face Nelson: Portrait of a Public Enemy by Steven Nickel and William J. Helmer, they state that Nelson fired a .351 rifle, they claim that Chase said this and that ballistics confirmed it.

If this issue has been resolved on the board and I missed it, what can I say...I missed it.

Check posts around 18-19, on the subject. We have eye witnesses ( not good, ) FBI reports on this, then sprinkle in the book accounts, think this is probably close. One thing that lingers in my mind, was the Winchester 07, 351 a Lebman conversion.

Time machine moment again.

 

OCM

[AlanDavid]

Jim C 351. Nice shooting, the recoil appears to be fairly light. I have heard that the recoil on its big brother the .401 Model 1910 is substantial.

 

The Police version of the .351 has a stronger stock being of a more stout design with more wood in the wrist area, no doubt useful when a miscreant needs to be butt stroked!

 

I have got a Model 1907 myself, London proof marks and dates to about 1915. It came with a 10 round magazine and a nearly full packet of Kynoch ammo, which I intend to empty some day.

 

Regards

 

Alan David

Sydney

[OCM]

If you can send the serial #, I can probably date the gun. 1915 would be in the 31,000- 33,000 area numnbers

[jim c 351]

Jim C 351. Nice shooting, the recoil appears to be fairly light. I have heard that the recoil on its big brother the .401 Model 1910 is substantial.

 

The Police version of the .351 has a stronger stock being of a more stout design with more wood in the wrist area, no doubt useful when a miscreant needs to be butt stroked!

 

I have got a Model 1907 myself, London proof marks and dates to about 1915. It came with a 10 round magazine and a nearly full packet of Kynoch ammo, which I intend to empty some day.

 

Regards

 

Alan David

Sydney

Alan ,

Thanks for the compliment.

The recoil is light but the loads are not full power. Loads used were my reloads ,--158 gr plated berry, 15 gr,--2400 for about 1550 fps. An accurate and pleasant load.

My 07 has the heavy buttstock with the steel buttplate. Really has a heavy duty feel to it.

Hopefully you can buy some reloads so you won't be tempted to shoot your Kynoch ammo.

Have you posted pics of your 07 on this forum??

Best of luck.

Jim C

[OCM]

Full auto 07 Winchester- I've never opened up the inside of a 07 351, taken it apart a bit just the wood.

I've been told that it was pretty easy for Lebman to covert one to full auto, by adjusting the rocker since it's a auto-loader anyway. I'm certainly not planning on doing that, but was told this recently by a amateur gunsmith, that that's probably what he did. They were not select fire ,at least the ones in Tucson with the Dillinger gang.

Has this ever been done legally that anyone knows of ?

 

OCM

[jim c 351]

Sandy,

The trigger, sear and hammer in the M1907 is very similar to the same parts in an M1 carbine.

To make the 07 select fire would require additional parts as with the M1 carbine.

The sear could be altered so the hammer would not lock back when pressure was applied to the trigger. The hammer would then follow the bolt forward and may or may not fire the cartridge.

If it did fire it would have a very high ROF , much like a MAC 10, and very great recoil. A 10 shot mag would disappear in a flash.

It would be a way to turn a very effective firearm into a useless and hazardous noise maker.

The few times that I am aware of the 1907 used to murder a cop, Nelson and Van Meter, I got the impression the guns were semi.

Jim C

[OCM]

Yes, I agree here. The muzzle break MIGHT come into play, but it's be a lot of lead going forward somewhere, fast. I've always thought it was a gangster toy as if Lebman said here try this- According to my buddy, the one in Tucson is still operable at FA. Said they took it out at one time ?

Be fun to see a youtube on one.

If it wasn't select fire, can't imagine what use and how dangerous it was. Goes along with the Colt mini made from a super 38, which was select fire, would of had the rocker, Cutts etc. Gangster toys.

 

Thanks-

Edited November 19, 2014 by OCM

[ron_brock]

Sandy,

 

Supposedly they were made legally when shipped as full auto to France, but I know that is a little different than your question I have not really heard much about the supposed full auto guns planned for use in France other than comments that they were shipped to France and some were or were planned to be full auto for aircraft use. I don't have the Henwood book so I don't know if there are any further mentions of these in there. At the moment I have no idea where my other 07 book from Len is since all my books are packed. With a recent move, I realize that I have WAY TOO MANY books.

 

- Ron

[OCM]

Ron-

Never heard of the French thing, new stuff to me ( which is easy) - Thanks-

We are in a remodel, so will have to find the Henwood book, check it out. Probably there & I didn't know.

My entire Gangster library was bought with the collection, save a few.

 

Thanks

 

Back to you tomorrow maybe

[gunhistorian]

I don't believe that the French 07s (for use in aircraft) were select-fire (or even full-auto only) weapons. One of Hatcher's books has info (scant) on this particular weapon (Hatcher's Notebook, I think). William Morgan, a "soldier of fortune" fighting with the anti-Batista forces in Cuba allegedly modified an 07 (I think it was) by cutting down the barrel, may have added a Thompson fore-grip, and -- I think -- cut down the buttstock. There was a photo of him and the gun (made into a select fire weapon) in a late 50s early 60s GUNS magazine. If I recall from Larry Ruth's book on the carbine, or maybe from an article in ARMEX (journal of the Cody Museum) on the history of the M1 Carbine, the initial trigger group was modified from one from the 07. Just passing on some additional trivia! LOL

[OCM]

( Briefly) Henwood has it as the French bought more 07s then the Rem 8. I've owned both, don't blame them, other then ammo costs.

Tried to use in a airplane, neither worked very well, the 07 finally used as a prison gun.

Only mention of a change, was a bayonet added- Nothing about a conversion to FA or select fire.

 

Looks like Lebman was the guy on the FA conversion.

 

My kick myself in the ass 1200th time thing : I did talk back in the day, to a lawman, that was allowed to strip down the Dillinger 07 at Tucson, actually both captured. Late 1980s or early 1990s. May of even been John Henwood as I did talk to him too. I don't remember and way lost in paper or old computer crashes. He described what was done. I didn't understand a thing he was telling me- Wasn't into it then.....Sad now.

 

Filled the sear down maybe, no idea really. My only thing is if Dillinger picked the FA 07 up in Texas, along with his nickel 38 Super, via Lebman in Fort Worth( gun shop in FW) somehow, he only had it for a week and maybe never fired it- This is only a wild ( sorta educated ) guess.

[StooperZero]

still on my 'to get' list.

[OCM]

Mr. S. Zero-

As mentioned here, with inexpensive ammo available for the 351 07, it's a bargain buy . Machinegun Mike on the forum had 4 or so for sale a 1910 I think too.

Here is my pal's son, that is working on the WH Thompson with us. He is holding both Win 07s that were taken from the Dillinger gang in Tucson- Left hand is full auto. He's a big boy, wouldn't need a gun to rob a bank- Give me the money or I'll break your neck....

Like his dad, great guys.

[StooperZero]

most of my $$ has been going towards repairing WW1 guns and upgrading my machining/welding equipment lately.

 

 

I did manage to get a mossberg Brownie this year. fun little derringer.

[dalbert]

Sandy,

 

With a recent move, I realize that I have WAY TOO MANY books.

 

- Ron

 

That can never happen. It's like too many guns...

 

David

[gunhistorian]

I realize this doesn't deal with gangster or law enforcement '07s, but I made reference earlier to the '07 being modified by William Morgan during the anti-Batista revolution in Cuba. You Tube has a video (made up of still photos) showing this weapon. There is a photo (insert) of the gun stripped. Allegedly 10 were made, also allegedly in .351, .45 acp, and 9-mm Para. Magazine was a Luger "snail-drum". I forgot to copy the URL, but if you go to You Tube and search for "First Cuban Assault Rifle?" it should come up. Just thought this was interesting as it demonstrates that there isn't much new under the sun: First Lebman (probably), then Morgan doing conversions. Sort of like the Marine Corps experimenting with short barrel BARs -- during the inter-War period. What makes a good "gangster gun" probably also makes a good "guerrilla or jungle warfare" gun.

[ron_brock]

 

 

Sandy,

With a recent move, I realize that I have WAY TOO MANY books.

 

- Ron

That can never happen. It's like too many guns...

 

David

I thought YOU might catch me saying that. All I can say is once you move them, you quickly get your old back telling you ( and your friends) that you have way too many books. I guess I just needed some of my other friends help move the books!

 

Ron

[OCM]

Always wondered if the military got the idea to cut down a BAR from Clyde Barrow- I know they did some experimentation on doing a FA pistol as Lebman did, I think the Navy was doing this ( think) . Rick Cartilage told me that Lebman actually carved his own wood grips. I don't think I've ever really compared that to Thompson furniture on the Dillinger 07.