Colt #651 an IRA Weapon

[firearm]

Here are some pics of an IRA weapon that I have owned for a while. If this thing could talk, what a story it would have to tell. GH pulled the barrel when he came by years ago and confirmed the serial number of the weapon to be 651. These are his notes:

 

#651 21 A American Railway Express Company (A.R.E.C.) 46th Street New York, N.Y.

(1 of 30 shipped 5/27/21) Invoice 2085 - Total (390) guns

c/o; George Gordon Rorke / F. Williams N.Y.C. (1 of 600 over all)

One of (495) guns seized on the steamship "Eastside" 6/14/21

(This was one of the (101) gun numbers identified in FBI notes)

 

Note: 1 of 60 Colt Thompsons imported from Ireland by INTERARMCO 5/16/56,

for Numrich Arms Company, West Hurley, New York. 16 of these were

re-numbered by Irish Police (Garda Siochana) in Dublin. (See Interarms)

 

* Purchased by; G. K. Ginnings Co. Greensboro, N.C. (1 of 6)

Private collection Cincinnati, Ohio 6/26/91

Ohio Ordnance Inc. (Robert Landies) Chardon, Ohio 1991

George T. Del Collo collection Reading, Pennsylvania 1995

Nick Tilotta (Western Firearms Co.) Grapevine, Texas 4/29/96

 

Note: The serial number and most logos have been ground off receiver on

both sides. To confirm serial number, Author removed barrel and

gripmount. S/No. 651 was found. Original 21 A barrel was missing. Some

internal parts have been switched. Mismatched trigger frame No. 6459.

Original wood refinished with brass tag on right side of stock No. 661.

Overall condition rough. GH 2/04

 

My observations were that all of the the internals are original and that the butt stock is not. Curious as to what you RKI's think. Pics attached.

 

Here is an interesting link to the IRA weapons that were seized on the Eastside back on 6-14-1921

 

http://www.thompsongunireland.com/FBI%20Papers/US%20RECORDS%201921.htm

Edited August 15, 2020 by firearm

[MPSAMM]

I think it is beautiful. What a cool gun!!

[TD.]

Nick,

Thank you for sharing!

 

NO 651 certainly has a lot of history! There is that name, George T. Del Collo, of the canvas Spare Part Kit fame

 

I am curious as to what serial number NO 651 is registered under. I did note the stamped number 651 on the underside of the receiver. Was this done by Gordon after he removed the barrel or by a previous owner, possibly Interarms? I feel certain NO 651 would have to have been imported with some number. A Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) would probably show an initial Form 2 by Interarms and then a subsequent transfer to Numrich Arms. Those papers, while redacted, would be interesting to review.

 

The barrel looks to be original Colt's to me. I assume the number 651 is missing from the breech face. If the barrel was replaced, it was done a long time ago. With the mis-matched Colt's frame, I wonder if it (and many other of the referenced 60 Colt's) were imported as receivers and put together by Numrich Arms. That would explain the non-original barrel. All guesses on my part.

 

I would also like to know what happened to the Colt's that were re-numbered with the letter "G" serial number prefix. I have never seen one of those in the Thompson community. Unfortunately, Gordon did not source or state where he obtained this information in his book.

 

Regarding the butt stock, is the slide assembly Colt's?

 

All good stuff!

[firearm]

The weapon was marked "651" when I received it. My guess is that Interarms marked the receiver 651 before it was imported as there are no other serial numbers to be found on the weapon, unless the barrel is removed. I suspect that the Irish Police did not mark it but identified it with the brass property tag (#661) on the butt stock. Note that on the left side of the butt stock there is an area where another brass plate had been attached. On the barrel, you are correct. The number 651 is missing off the breech face. Interesting to see that the lower is #6459. I wonder what lower is on this weapon?

 

From Gordon's book:

 

6459 21 A Momsen-Dunnegan-Ryan Co. East Overland St. at Ochoa El Paso, Texas

(1 of 39) (1 of 25 Shipped 3/13/29)

Fwd. ship to: Fernando Chacon Mexican Consulate Naco, Arizona (1 of 25)

This Trigger Frame with Thompson No. 651. (See Nick Tilotta, Texas)

As worn and torn as it is, I also consider it a beautiful piece of history.

[rpbcps]

Don't quote me on this, as I can not recall where I read it.. but in my notes I have this information:

 

"The Irish National Army, Defence force after Oct. 1924 used some of the East Side Thompsons from 1922 until the 1950’s, these would have been stored in better conditions than the IRA Thompsons. These guns were sold in 1956 to Interarmco, (Interarms), in the USA, who sold them onto U.S. collectors"

 

This Thompson does look in better condition than my SS Eastside example, which I guess saw more time under ground than above it. I also note the sling attachments added to this weapon, I don't think the IRA would have added those, however the Irish Defence Force probably would have added sling attachments, but I may be wrong on that assumption.

 

It is a lovely addition to any collection.

 

[TD.]

Nick,

I agree. It is a beautiful piece of history.

 

The stamping of number 651 on the underside of the receiver looks professionally done so we can rule out Numrich Arms. I would guess Interarms had to sort through all the Thompsons while in Ireland after the purchase was made and determine the original serial numbers or apply their own for import purposes. It appears Interarms did not want to damage the product further so the barrel of 651 was removed and the original serial number identified and so stamped on the receiver. I would also guess this happened with all the other guns in similar condition but I don't recall seeing any like your NO 651. Perhaps I have, but nothing comes to mind at the moment. We don't know how frame NO 6459 ended up on NO 651, perhaps at Numrich, but maybe by a past owner. Given the history of NO 6459, I bet it no longer exists (at least as a registered machine gun in the USA).

 

I would like to see NO 651 in person!

[Merry Ploughboy]

I'm not seeing an anchor at the usual location on the stock, so your assessment that the stock is not original may well be correct.

In any case, an interesting Thompson. Thank you for sharing.

[firearm]

Just got a minute to pull the stock off and tear it down. Certainly not Remington wood. Hardware looks military but I am not sure where this stock came from. For a moment I thought it might have been handmade. It doesn't even feel like a military stock. Way to thick and chunky if that makes sense. There are no markings under the butt plate. Pics attached.

[navwings]

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the added sling swivels ?

 

Thanks,Owen

[TD.]

The slide assembly appears to be a WWII part. If cleaned, you may find a manufacturers mark or two. The butt plate appears to be from another firearm, perhaps a 1903 Springfield or P17 Enfield rifle.

[firearm]

Attached is a document from the FBI files noting the serial number of this weapon and another that I have off the Steamship Eastside. Serial #800. I will post the jpegs on it as soon as I get them taken.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by firearm

[timkel]

Wow , the history. That one could/should be in a museum.

[rpbcps]

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the added sling swivels ?

 

Thanks,Owen

 

I have found a photo of an Irish defence force soldier with a Thompson gun fitted with an improvised sling attachment on page 102 of Tom Davis's book, "Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story". So my assumption may be wrong as i would have thought with the limited number of Thompsons the Irish Defence Force had in their inventory, details given in same publication on page 101, they would have all had the same modifications made to them as fr as sling attachments are concerned.

 

Does any one own, or has seen an Irish defence Force manual for the Thompson gun? Just wondering as that would probably have photos of the Thompsons with their sling attachments?

 

While looking through that book, I was reminded that there are pictures of my Eastside Thompson in it, from when it was owned by Dermot Foley, who sold it to me a few years ago.

Edited August 16, 2020 by rpbcps

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Note: 1 of 60 Colt Thompsons imported from Ireland by INTERARMCO 5/16/56,

for Numrich Arms Company, West Hurley, New York. 16 of these were

re-numbered by Irish Police (Garda Siochana) in Dublin. (See Interarms)

Your Irish Sword is featured in this thread as an example of a business deal at odds with Numrich's claims of manufacturing TSMGs, importing TSMGs without a go-between, and then exporting TSMGs without a go-between, to foreign governments.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?s=8e1c76fa1428459dae2712b3a97578c1&showtopic=24812

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I would also like to know what happened to the Colt's that were re-numbered with the letter "G" serial number prefix. I have never seen one of those in the Thompson community. Unfortunately, Gordon did not source or state where he obtained this information in his book.

 

 

NAC 14 is described as having a "G" stamped on all parts. This used to be on display at the Champlin Fighter Museum. All of the planes and firearms were sold at auction back in 2000.

[TD.]

 

Note: 1 of 60 Colt Thompsons imported from Ireland by INTERARMCO 5/16/56,

for Numrich Arms Company, West Hurley, New York. 16 of these were

re-numbered by Irish Police (Garda Siochana) in Dublin. (See Interarms)

Your Irish Sword is featured in this thread as an example of a business deal at odds with Numrich's claims of manufacturing TSMGs, importing TSMGs without a go-between, and then exporting TSMGs without a go-between, to foreign governments.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?s=8e1c76fa1428459dae2712b3a97578c1&showtopic=24812

 

Only in your mind Arthur. I would guess (as we both are) that a buyer agent from INTERARMS made the deal for the Irish Colt's and Sam Cummings called George Numrich and sold the Colt's before his check to the Irish government cleared.

 

What would be interesting is how many of these 60 (If that was the number. Gordon never sourced or authenticated this information) were sold in the USA and how many may have been exported.

 

All good stuff!