Thompson Night Ops 5-Cell XX Magazine Pouch - Navy?

[dalbert]

All,

 

I acquired a new Thompson pouch for my collection that I believe will be of interest to folks on the board. This same kind of pouch is shown on page 625 of TUTB. It is not featured in ATII.

 

The item is what Tracie calls a "Night Ops" Thompson 5-Cell XX Magazine Pouch. It was made by American Leather Products Corp., and is dated 1942, with the manufacturer mark inside the belt loop. It's is marked "U.S." on the reverse, like most olive drab pouches of this type. It appears that this type of pouch was originally manufactured in olive drab color, and then dyed to a very dark navy blue color, which is almost black. Inside the belt loop, some olive drab areas can be seen, where the dye did not fully permeate.

 

The individual who I purchased it from had it tagged as a "Navy" pouch, which was probably conjecture on his part, based on the color, but then again, I want to post the subject here for further discussion, in case anyone may be able to substantiate a U.S. Navy connection.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Canvas/Night_Pouch_Web.JPG

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Canvas/Night_Pouch-2_Web.JPG

 

Marking inside the belt loop, "American Leather Products Corp, 1942."

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/Canvas/Night_Pouch-3_Web.JPG

 

I'm going to add this item to the canvas pinned post for future reference.

 

Any thoughts on the history of these pouches would be appreciated, along with any other comment you may have.

 

Thanks!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[ron_brock]

Hi David,

 

Nice pouch. If it's the one I am thinking of, glad I did not bid on it. I ran across two of these a few years back and passed because they smelled aweful, as if they were rotting. I have always sort of regretted it, however I still was not sure if they were original or dyed with some wierd chemical. This pouch looks much nicer than the two that I saw.

 

Does your have any smell to it?

 

- Ron

Edited April 1, 2012 by ron_brock

[dalbert]

Hi David,

 

Nice pouch. If it's the one I am thinking of, glad I did not bid on it. I ran across two of these a few years back and passed because they smelled aweful, as if they were rotting. I have always sort of regretted it, however I still was not sure if they were original or dyed with some wierd chemical. This pouch looks much nicer than the two that I saw.

 

Does your have any smell to it?

 

- Ron

 

Ron,

 

It's in great shape, and it does have some smell, but it's the kind of smell from being stored in a smoker's house. Thanks!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[jim c 351]

Since I have no info on this pouch, only opinions, I put off offering same, hoping a knowledgeable person would come forth. Since that didn't happen I'll give my opinion then sit back and wait for an expert to contradict me.

First off , I own the mag pouch pictured in Hill 's latest book. Bought it at a gun show around 1995.

At the OGCA show , last Oct, a dealer had 2 of these black pouches for sale. I tipped off a board member but they were sold before he got there. In any case there are at least 4 black pouches in Ohio, so its not something someone did in there basement.

 

If this pouch was used as a " night ops" pouch I doubt if it was US troops. The US didn't have small raid specialists like the British Commandos. The commandos made several daring cross channel raids plus an attack on Gen Rommels H.Q.. They may have used such a pouch for night raids. But,---we have board members in England, Europe and Australia and no one from these areas have come forth and identified the black pouch. Until someone does come forth we will rule out the allies.

If US troops used dyed pouches, then we would find dyed M1 rifle belts and dyed M1 carbine pouches. We haven't.

 

My thought is either MPs ,( Military Police), SPs ( Shore Patrol) or Navy CB, Construction Battalion.

The police units wear non standard gear to set them apart from the troops. A black mag pouch and a white web belt would look really sharp. With large numbers of prisoners to guard I'm sure Thompsons were present in large numbers.

The US Navy Cee Bee's spend much of their time on land and therefore are issued the same firearms as the US Marines. They might have dyed the pouches to discourage the Marines from stealing them.

 

Sadly , non of our reenactor members portray Navy units. If they did they might know the answer.

Jim C

 

David,

If you store mags in this pouch, check frequently for rust. This happend to me. Probably due to the black dye.

[ron_brock]

Jim,

 

Interesting comment. I will add that the two pouches I saw previously (the smelly ones and had heavy corrosion on the metal fittings) were also in Ohio, Mansfield to be exact. Probably nothing more than a coincidence, however interesting at the least.

 

- Ron

[jim c 351]

Jim,

 

Interesting comment. I will add that the two pouches I saw previously (the smelly ones and had heavy corrosion on the metal fittings) were also in Ohio, Mansfield to be exact. Probably nothing more than a coincidence, however interesting at the least.

 

- Ron

 

 

Ron,

Were they offered for sale by a known carbine collector?

Jim C

[ron_brock]

Jim,

 

Not that I recall unless he also deals in Civil War relics. I believe it was about two years ago. I ran across them at the Mansfield Civil War show of all places. I do not recall what other items were on his table, but I seem to recall these in a small pile of canvas, sort of out of place on his table and at the show.

 

- Ron

[gijive]

Back in the 1960's and 1970's guys on the police department I worked on used to dye surplus WWII OD Carbine pouches black or Navy blue to carry spare 15 round Carbine magazines for the M1 Carbines they all had. The guns were purchased through the department from the old Civilliam Marksmanship Program (CMP) or whatever it was called prior to CMP. Some of the surrounding agencies also had Thompson SMGs purchased in the 1960's through Federal Governemnt Law Enforcement assistance programs. I believe most were reimported from England and elsewhere. I saw a couple of early Savage guns with pistol grip forearms that a couple of agencies had. I wasn't into the guns too much then so didn't pay attention to import markings or serial numbers. I bvelieve many of these guns were registered with police agencies in the late 1950's, 1960's and possibly even into the early 1970's. Not all police guns came off the Auto-Ordnance assembly lines during WWII as many collectors believe.

[jim c 351]

Back in the 1960's and 1970's guys on the police department I worked on used to dye surplus WWII OD Carbine pouches black or Navy blue to carry spare 15 round Carbine magazines for the M1 Carbines they all had.

 

This could be the answer, not the answer we wanted , but the answer.

Back in the 1990s , when I had a gun shop I noticed how fashion and color conscience the police dept was. If they had gold buttons on their shirt, then they had to replace the silver snaps on the mag pouches with gold snaps.

Its possible that police depts are the culprits who dyed the TSMG pouches. If Ohio is the only state that these pouches show up, then it might be an Ohio only situation.

 

 

Jim C

Edited April 4, 2012 by jim c 351

[Rapidrob]

I was ships aromerer on every ship is served on. Our Landing Force was issued web gear that was Marine Corps or Army issue. I never saw black web gear in the surface fleet. However, for the special forces in the Navy, UDT Divers and SEALS, they could order all sorts of unique web gear.

Who knows if the item was ordered or perhaps dyed as needed?

[ron_brock]

Just to add to this discussion, I spotted a black dyed 1911 pouch yesterday (in Michigan). Looked to be a standard WWII or slightly later pouch, but was dyed black. You could see the US on the front through the dye, but could also see where little or no dye penetrated in folds and in the belt loop on the back. Similar to the Thompson pouches. I passed on it as the seller seemed to think it was dyed with gold as opposed to black dye.

 

- Ron

[TSMGguy]

I kinda doubt whether these can be considered to be a wartime variation as they were OD #3 or #7 (or a combination thereof) when they left the contractor. Guys over on the G503 boards go gaga over WWII jeep paint variations, but they all looked the same when they left the factories. The odd and wonderful paint schemes were applied later by the users. There were no Navy or USMC factory jeep schemes, just as there were no "night" 5 cell WWII TSMG pouch variations. Anyone could whip up a drum of dye. Heck, the paratroops immersed their early white 'chute harnesses in coffee to tone down the white cotton.

 

Here's my 1943 jeep MB, in the factory delivery scheme:

[ron_brock]

Bringing this back to the top as I bought two black pouches this past weekend. I will get some pics and post them as time permits. These came from the same Civil War show in Mansfield. I don't think they were the same ones I missed many years back as they don't smell too bad (unless they just aired out). Seller had no idea why they were black, but they came with a carbine pouch, belt, and canteen, but only these remained. Still would love to confirm the ID of these. I don't think the seller dyed them to make money and conjure up some great story as these were priced less than a Russian pouch.

 

- Ron

[jim c 351]

Ron,

I was at that show and missed them. Did you buy them early on Sat??

Did you buy them from the guy with M1 carbines and British gear?? Was one case in much better shape than the other??

I picked up some interesting items at the show.

A RUSCO 1942 "L" drum pouch.

A pair of BAR assistant gunner bando's 1 right and 1 left, dated 1918.

A silver marksmen ship bar marked TOMMY GUN.

A good show.

Jim C

[ron_brock]

Jim,

 

It was pretty early Sat morning. I don't recall if they were in the second or third building. I usually hit the first large building then work counterclockwise (ending in the WWII building), but this year we did the second and third buildings then the big one. The guy was set up in the corner near the door and had quite a bit of other web gear. A quick pic is attached just using the flash. They are pretty similar, but are different makers. Sounds like you had a good show too. I bought quite a few things, but nothing Civil War, which is what I am usually hunting for at that show! I notice each year that there seems to be more and more other era stuff there.

 

Wish I knew you were there I would liked to have said hello.

 

- Ron

[jim c 351]

Ron,

This black pouch thing is getting a little strange.

I believe there is a good possibility that the person you dealt with is the same one that had 2 black pouches for sale at the Oct OGCA show 2 years ago. The reason I remember him is because he is into restoring M1 carbines. He was near the front door, but I can't identify the building name. When I passed his table he had several buyers looking at WW2 uniforms and the uniforms were covering his table.

So,--what are the odds of the same person finding something so rare as black dyed TSMG pouch 4 times, UNLESS he was dying them himself?? Not necessarily to make extra money but to hide badly stained pouches. What do you think ??

The black pouch that I bought was middle 90's and don't remember the seller.

Jim C

[StooperZero]

the stench is more than likely from RIT dye or a vegetable based dye.

IMHO, the cheap 1942 marked 5 mag pouches IMA had for almost nothing dyed black.

 

 

I could be wrong, But I've dyed older khaki canvas black myself and it looks exactly the same.

[Big Al]

I think someone said in another thread that pouches of this type had a police connection. Just my $0.02.

[Waffen Und Bier]

Nice jeep, TSMGguy! Need to get one some day to carry my Thompsons. What model Triumph is that?

[TSMGguy]

Thanks! The Triumph is a 2003 T100.

Edited May 13, 2014 by TSMGguy

[Waffen Und Bier]

Sweet. Love the styling of British vertical singles and twins. Here's my Thruxton. I like the classic look of the Bonneville T100, but also like the cafe racer styling of the Thruxton. I added tank pads and fork boots and will eventually replace the megaphones with peashooter exhausts. I'm working on obtaining a WWII vintage Matchless, but the owner is still up in the air on selling.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Waffen Und Bier

[giantpanda4]

Nice Triumph! That would go well with my Trident!

Seriously, has anyone seen a Tommy on a motorcycle from the Brits?

Edited May 13, 2014 by giantpanda4

[ron_brock]

Well this thread is going all over and here I thought someone may have some info on these black pouches. Yes, there are magazine covers with photos of motorcycle mounted Thompsons. Not sure what the bikes were.

 

Ron

[jim c 351]

Ron,

Have you ever heard of "attention deficit disorder" ??

Now you have.

Jim C

[Kilroy]

I think I read once upon a time that Marine raiders dyed some of their web gear black.