New TSMG Book By Peter Linton - "Machinist's Guide"

[Peter Linton]

Hi Folks, Good to see your comments about my book, they make interesting reading & I thought I should reply to them.

 

My book only covers the 1928A1 as used by the New Zealand army in the WW2 Pacific, Korea & Malaysia campaigns.

All measurements are based on 2 guns that I had access to. Given that these are ex-NZ Army explains why they appear so rough as they were not that well looked after.

 

The gun with the Lyman rear site was located after WW2 in possession of the Samoa Police & was imported to NZ in the 1980's I believe. This gun being NZ army marked is quite rare as most of these guns were thrown overboard when the troops returned from the Northern Solomons at the end of WW2.

The second gun with the rear peep sight is one that was used by NZ troops in Malaysia & Borneo as shown by the re-positioned sling swivels. The outside finish of the second gun is better than the first one, although the internals show the second gun has done more work.

 

As a Mechanical Engineer, I've used most metal working machinery, made many parts as well as making drawings of components.

Thus it was a natural thing to dismantle 2 guns & draw them on CAD.

Based on this, you can make an authetic gun from these plans that will work.

Unfortunately, to do this in New Zealand, one needs to get a "permit to Procure a restricted weapon" from the police which is not an easy thing to do.

So while I haven't made a Thompson, I have made a 50 cal rifle as this can be owned on a standard Firearm licence & doesn't need to be registered.

I made the barrel myself & it shoots fine

 

Getting the pictures for the book was a lot more difficult.

Inspite of numerous attempts at photography, I couldn't get photos that were acceptable to the publisher - Gun Show Books.

Finally I realised I needed a professional to take the photos & these are the ones in my book.

 

Hope this helps.

Peter

[reconbob]

The history of the two guns you mention is most interesting.

However, measuring parts and making CAD drawings is not the same as

actually making guns. You as a mechanical engineer should know this.

When parts go from drawings to production errors and ommisons are discovered

and corrected. It could be an honest mistake, for example, maybe 0.123" ended up on

the drawing as 0.132".

You can measure parts, but you have no way of knowing what the tolerances are

that were designed into the gun. Maybe you guessed right...maybe not.

On the Thompson submachine gun there are specific dimensions and tolerances especially

pertaining to the relationship of the depth of the chamber to the shoulder of the barrel, the front

face of the receiver to the front face of the bolt pocket, and the front face of the bolt body to the

the bolt face that rests against the base of the cartridge. All of these tolerances are

inter-related and together affect the headspace of the gun. By your own description you are

measuring guns that are "rough" so without question some accuracy is already lost.

I have not received/read your book yet, (but I ordered one!) until you or someone machines the

parts, assembles a gun, and shoots it (and it works) using the drawings in your book this is a

theoretical study only.

 

 

Bob Bower/Phila Ordnance

Edited August 21, 2012 by reconbob

[wv1928]

Hey Guys, i bought one also. but like Frank,s book I will keep it in the wrapper. Maybe I can borrow one of yours to read. Edited August 21, 2012 by wv1928

[james m]

Peter Linton:

Thanks for the above post explaining how the book was created. I have a question about machine gun ownership in New Zealand.

I was of the understanding that once you were issued the required license to own full auto weapons you could buy and sell them at will to other licensed collectors. Unlike here in the States; the owner in New Zealand and not the gun(s) is licensed. This is basically what I was told by a New Zealander who was attending the Small Arms Review in Phoenix,AZ a few years back. Can you confirm this?

Jim

Edited August 21, 2012 by james m

[adlake]

Yeah, another one sold. I took

One.-Adlake

[Peter Linton]

Hi Jim,

To own guns in NZ, one obtains a standard firearm licence.

This allows you to own, buy, borrow & sell any standard firearm such as a hunting rifle or shotgun.

This commonly referred to as an A Category Licence.

These guns are not registered at the moment. Registration was dropped in the 1980's when the police admitted the Gun registrar had a 40% error rate & that registered guns were rarely used in crime.

 

If you want to own & shoot pistols you need a "B" Category endorsement on you licence.

This allows you to shoot most types of handguns at a pistol range provided they have a barrel of 4" or more.

 

A "C" Category endorsement allows you to buy,sell, own & display restricted weapons, such as Thompsons, Sub-machineguns, machineguns bazookas etc.

You can own just about anything provided it fits in with the description of interest on your original "C" Catergory application.

These guns are not allowed to be fired under any circumstances

 

A "D" Catergory endorsement is for dealers,

 

A "E" Category endorsement is for so-called Military Styled Semi Automatics (MSSA's)

That is any Semi-Auto Centre-fire rifle or shotgun with one or more of the following features:

Magazine with more than 7 shots

Bayonet lug

Flash-hider

Military styled pistol grip

This is designed to control the likes of M16, AR15, SLR-FN, AK47, SKS etc.

Unless you have an E endorsement its illegal to fire one of these guns

 

A "F" endorsement is a special licence for dealers who can fire any type of firearm at any time without notifying the police.

 

A Theatrical licence allows you to fire all manner of firearms, including full-auto at recognised events.

 

If you're caught breaking of the the licence conditions for any of the licence endorsements people can receive a 3 year jail sentence.

 

Hope this helps.

Peter

[JimFromFL]

It's definitely geared toward the machinist, thus the title.

 

 

Oh well, I think I will pass. Not planning on machining any Thompsons in the near future.

Hope everyone else enjoys the book.

[james m]

Thanks for the explanation Peter:

 

I guess I'd rather live under the restrictions we have here and be able to do a mag dump whenever I feel like it.

This has to be a great temptation to an owner with a perfectly operable Thompson to just sit and admire it without ever having the opportunity to fire it.

Jim

[reconbob]

I am bouncing this up to the top. This topic started by Dave has had over 1000 views.

A similiar topic I started where I commented on the book from a technical standpoint has

received only a couple of hundred views and both of these topics will soon drop down out

of sight and be forgotten.

I would caution anyone thinking of buying this book to read my review of it. If you want

to buy it because its a Thompson item ok. If you want to buy it as a reference and because

you think that as advertised and promoted it is an accurate machinists guide for making

a Thompson then you will be disappointed. The seller will not accept returns.

It would be nice if the publisher/seller - who was front and center early on when Dave

"found" this book on ebay would step up and weigh in on all of the severe inaccuracies

in this book and what the plan is pertaining to futures sales.

This may sound harsh but myself and others in the engineering profession take this

type of thing seriously. Either engineering data is correct, or it is not. If faulty and incorrect

data is allowed to be promoted and sold as true and correct this is not right and damages

the credibilty of the profession.

 

Bob Bower/Phila Ordnance

[ron_brock]

Bob,

 

Great point and I thank you for your insight. As an engineer and Thompson enthusiast I bought this book as well.

 

"(The Machinist's Guide to the Thompson Submachine Gun) takes you deep into the inner workings of the Thompson, showing the reader exactly what is required to make all the machined components of this fine firearm. Detailed Engineering drawings and beautifully photographed pictures show all the components required for a complete Thompson including complete accurate measurements. Not only will this book provide sessions of captivating entertainment, for everyone interested in military firearms, but it's sure to become the most sought after text for anyone interested in the mechanical workings of this most historical firearm. Simply a must for all Thompson Collectors and Enthusiasts."

 

This led me to believe that the original drawings were reviewed and the book would walk through the ins and outs of machining the components. Interesting discussions like cutting those barrel threads and blish lock slots. Even magazines were included (box magazine is there, but the drum mag is only photographed). I guess that it was too difficult to disassemble and measure. Maybe some discussion on how the machining steps would have taken place using equipment, tooling and measurement tools of the 40's (no CNC or even DRO). I thought of the process sheets that are included in Tracie's new book that walk through the production steps required to produce each piece by operation.

 

Disappointingly as you mention this book is more of a study on taking a used item and reverse engineering it. Applying standard tolerances whether they are justified or not. All information learned during the development was lost and would start over again (proper tolerances, heat treatment, etc). It's like starting over and setting up production in a low cost country copying a competitor's design.

 

No I do not machine Thompson parts like others on the forum so I cannot speak from experience, but I appreciate the work that has gone into the development and manufacturing of all firearms using the tools available at the time of production. I've not read through the book in whole, only skimmed through its contents. I do like the photographs, but the drawings and machining descriptions should be more accurately described than they are in the paragraph written to sell the book, quoted and taken out of context above. I feel that it's a bit of a false advertisement but that is just my perception after reading the description, buying the book and viewing the item. As it was suggested elsewhere if you are considering a purchase, it may be wise to review the contents and decide on the purchase at that time.

 

My 2 cents worth, YMMV

- Ron

 

Edit because somehow I made the font super tiny when I posted.

Edited August 30, 2012 by ron_brock

[mnshooter]

I have one mint copy for $25.00 delivered. PM me if you want to find out for yourself. Edited August 30, 2012 by mnshooter

[reconbob]

It appears that this book has been removed from Ebay. I would think most of the

16 copies sold were to us here on the board. Unfortunately the book is still listed for

sale on the publishers website.

 

Bob

[dalbert]

All,

 

Here are some further comments about the new book:

• I do believe this book fills a niche, and if Reconbob ends up affirming that the specifications listed within are accurate, I will recommend it be included in a Thompson collector library
  
• The part photos are very good for black and white photos - I know it can be difficult to transfer black and white photos to print without them appearing much darker than the original, and that's not the case with this book
  
• The glaring error that I need to call out is in paragraph 3 - The author states that "At the time of manufacture, the large amount of machining added greatly to its cost of $225. This is four and a half times the cost of a Jeep, and more than a Garand or Lee Enfield." - When I read this, I immediately challenged the Jeep cost assertion in my head, and subsequently determined that Jeep costs averaged about $700 when introduced - Not sure how the four and a half times cost assertion passed muster, as it is completely inaccurate...
  
• I think the book could have benefitted from being edited by a known Thompson expert
  
• The book is geared toward the machinist...thus the title...However, as ReconBob inquired, there are no photos of machining processes, or evidence that the author machined any Thompson parts...All parts I see in the book appear to be of WWII Bridgeport manufacture
  
• The book is a well produced paperback book of 184 pages...The sum of the written content is not significant...Most of the time spent on this book was spent carefully taking the scores of pictures, and converting or preparing the specifications into the format presented throughout the book...
  
• The book has what I perceive to be many machinist tips that appear to be valuable time savers...Again, I'll leave it to ReconBob to weigh in on this, based on his unique qualifications to do so
  

So, I'm going to reserve my usual number rating (From 1 to 5 stars) until I hear more from a known Thompson machining expert about the book. I think many on this board will want to purchase it. At $40, it's a little more than one might expect to spend on a book of this length, but my perception at this point is that the content is worth it, if not just for the part photos.

 

 

 

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

Ok, I'm ready to weigh in on this book with a numerical rating. I rate from 1 to 5, with 5 being the highest possible score. The raw score I'll give this book is a 1.5, which rounds up to 2. You may wonder, after all the revelation about the machining inaccuracies contained within, why I don't just rate it a straight 1. I believe a rating of 1 should be reserved for books with no redeeming value whatsoever. This book has some value in the pictures that are presented within of all the parts of a Model 1928A1 Thompson Submachine Gun. That's about it. I was hoping to find out that the machinist drawings were made from originals...as reconbob has documented, this is sadly not the case. Anyone who intends to use this book for its stated purpose must be aware that doing so would present a hazardous situation. This book should absolutely not be used as a guide to machine any Thompson part, since it was put together by measuring existing parts, and guessing the tolerance ranges. The author by his own account, did not machine any Thompson parts.

 

I'm very disappointed that this book is so inaccurate. It takes a lot of effort and money to publish a book, and one would think that appropriate due diligence would be incorporated into the production of a book like this. We have now witnessed two really poor Thompson books published where the authors did not consult known Thompson experts, and the resulting work reflected that mistake.

 

So, if this book is taken only for its stated purpose, it would be rated a 1. However, while putting the book together, the author employed a photographer, and presented some redeeming value in the many angles of Thompson parts presented within, so I'm going with a 1.5, which rounds to 2.

 

Here is a general description of my firearm book rating scale:

 

5 = Extremely well written, presented, accurate, authoritative, and complete on the subject matter -An example for others to follow

4 = Well written, well presented, very few inaccuracies, authoritative, and mostly complete on the subject matter

3 = Good effort, but incomplete to the subject matter, with several inaccuracies noted

2 = Not a recommended book, very inaccurate and definitely not authoritative, but has some minor redeeming value for documentation purposes or new content

1 = No redeeming value whatsoever, this book missed the mark on all counts

 

I rate books in the Firearm Manual and Book Forum on this website, and on Amazon.com, and I use the scale above for my reviews. Sometimes I use incremental ratings, such as "1.5," but Amazon only allows full points, so I round the ratings up in those cases.

 

Your thoughts?

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[reconbob]

I think your rating of 2 would be ok if the book was promoted and sold as a picture book.

But it is emphatically promoted as a "how to" guide with engineering drawings, etc. Buy the

book and you are told that you will have all the technical info you need to machine a working

Thompson submachine gun

If this is the intended goal of the buyer he will soon find that far from what the author and

publisher claim the engineering data and "suggestions" are completely inaccurate and useless.

You can't make anything that would fit and work using the drawings in the book. Its bad enough

that the buyer loses his initial $40 but how much time and money does the buyer spend making

bad parts before he realizes its all wrong?

So as a picture book, ok a 2. As a Machinists Guide to the Thompson Submachine Gun I can't

see that you can give the book any value at all.

 

Bob

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I rate books in the Firearm Manual and Book Forum on this website, and on Amazon.com, and I use the scale above for my reviews. Sometimes I use incremental ratings, such as "1.5," but Amazon only allows full points, so I round the ratings up in those cases.

 

Your thoughts?

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

Dave,

Didn't see your 1-5 ratings on the following books. Based on your rubric, how many stars did you give them?

 

The Gun that Made The Twenties Roar, 1979 by William J. Helmer

The Thompson Submachine Gun, by Roger A. Cox, 1982

Thompson, The American Legend, The First Submachine Gun, by Tracie L. Hill

The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill, 2009.

American Thunder, The Military Thompson Submachine Guns, by Frank Iannamico, 2000

American Thunder II, by Frank Iannamico, 2004

Colt Thompson Serial Numbers, by Gordon Herigstad, Volume Four, 2004

[Gio]

Dave I will have to agree with Bob. This book deserves a 1 based on the author's intention of writing a book in order to make a Thompson.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Frank

[dalbert]

 

Dave,

Didn't see your 1-5 ratings on the following books. Based on your rubric, how many stars did you give them?

 

The Gun that Made The Twenties Roar, 1979 by William J. Helmer

The Thompson Submachine Gun, by Roger A. Cox, 1982

Thompson, The American Legend, The First Submachine Gun, by Tracie L. Hill

The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill, 2009.

American Thunder, The Military Thompson Submachine Guns, by Frank Iannamico, 2000

American Thunder II, by Frank Iannamico, 2004

Colt Thompson Serial Numbers, by Gordon Herigstad, Volume Four, 2004

 

Arthur,

 

These are all good books. My ratings for each book are based on the moment in time when they were published. Through the years, better publishing techniques and more information became available. I'm comparing them to other firearms books available at the time they were published. With Gordon's book, I'm also taking into account that it is a constant work in progress, as more data becomes available - It's a quite different format than the other books listed. Keep in mind that these are my ratings, and contain some subjectivity.

 

(I corrected the 1979 date you listed for TGMTTR to 1969, and added the 1996 date to Tracie's American Legend book)

 

The Gun that Made The Twenties Roar, 1969 by William J. Helmer - 5

The Thompson Submachine Gun, by Roger A. Cox, 1982 - 4

Thompson, The American Legend, The First Submachine Gun, by Tracie L. Hill, 1996 - 4.5 (Rounds to 5)

The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill, 2009 - 4.5 (Rounds to 5)

American Thunder, The Military Thompson Submachine Guns, by Frank Iannamico, 2000 - 4

American Thunder II, by Frank Iannamico, 2004 - 4.5 (Rounds to 5)

Colt Thompson Serial Numbers, by Gordon Herigstad, Volume Four, 2004 - 4

 

I would stack rank them differently now, according to their current relevance, and have done so below.

 

1. The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill, 2009

2. The Gun that Made The Twenties Roar, 1969 by William J. Helmer

3. American Thunder II, by Frank Iannamico, 2004

4. Colt Thompson Serial Numbers, by Gordon Herigstad, Volume Four, 2004

5. Thompson, The American Legend, The First Submachine Gun, by Tracie L. Hill, 1996

6. American Thunder, The Military Thompson Submachine Guns, by Frank Iannamico, 2000

7. The Thompson Submachine Gun, by Roger A. Cox, 1982

 

reconbob and Gio,

 

As far as the Machinist's Guide goes, I indicated that if I were to rate it solely on it's stated intent, I would have to give it a 1. However, based on some value of the photos within for reference, I rated it a 1.5, which I ordinarily round up, resulting in a 2 rating. The 1.5 could be rounded down, I suppose, but I try to remain consistent in my rating methods, so I rounded up. I will use the book when pictures of parts are needed for reference, because it has more detail than an ordinary parts diagram.

 

I have only given a "2" rating once previously, and have never given a 1. I do not include a zero in the rating scale, because most rating scales do not include that value. So, there's really a 4 point range within the rating scale.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[emmagee1917]

From a WW2 poster pushing War Savings Stamps ( 1942 ) .

Number of $ 18.75 stamps needed for one of each item . M1 Garand ( 2 ) , Thompson SMG ( 4 ) , Jeep ( 50 ) .

Just thought I'd throw this in for David.

Chris

[mnshooter]

 

Dave,

Didn't see your 1-5 ratings on the following books. Based on your rubric, how many stars did you give them?

 

The Gun that Made The Twenties Roar, 1979 by William J. Helmer

The Thompson Submachine Gun, by Roger A. Cox, 1982

Thompson, The American Legend, The First Submachine Gun, by Tracie L. Hill

The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill, 2009.

American Thunder, The Military Thompson Submachine Guns, by Frank Iannamico, 2000

American Thunder II, by Frank Iannamico, 2004

Colt Thompson Serial Numbers, by Gordon Herigstad, Volume Four, 2004

 

Arthur,

 

These are all good books. My ratings for each book are based on the moment in time when they were published. Through the years, better publishing techniques and more information became available. I'm comparing them to other firearms books available at the time they were published. With Gordon's book, I'm also taking into account that it is a constant work in progress, as more data becomes available - It's a quite different format than the other books listed. Keep in mind that these are my ratings, and contain some subjectivity.

 

(I corrected the 1979 date you listed for TGMTTR to 1969, and added the 1996 date to Tracie's American Legend book)

 

The Gun that Made The Twenties Roar, 1969 by William J. Helmer - 5

The Thompson Submachine Gun, by Roger A. Cox, 1982 - 4

Thompson, The American Legend, The First Submachine Gun, by Tracie L. Hill, 1996 - 4.5 (Rounds to 5)

The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill, 2009 - 4.5 (Rounds to 5)

American Thunder, The Military Thompson Submachine Guns, by Frank Iannamico, 2000 - 4

American Thunder II, by Frank Iannamico, 2004 - 4.5 (Rounds to 5)

Colt Thompson Serial Numbers, by Gordon Herigstad, Volume Four, 2004 - 4

 

I would stack rank them differently now, according to their current relevance, and have done so below.

 

1. The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill, 2009

2. The Gun that Made The Twenties Roar, 1969 by William J. Helmer

3. American Thunder II, by Frank Iannamico, 2004

4. Colt Thompson Serial Numbers, by Gordon Herigstad, Volume Four, 2004

5. Thompson, The American Legend, The First Submachine Gun, by Tracie L. Hill, 1996

6. American Thunder, The Military Thompson Submachine Guns, by Frank Iannamico, 2000

7. The Thompson Submachine Gun, by Roger A. Cox, 1982

 

reconbob and Gio,

 

As far as the Machinist's Guide goes, I indicated that if I were to rate it solely on it's stated intent, I would have to give it a 1. However, based on some value of the photos within for reference, I rated it a 1.5, which I ordinarily round up, resulting in a 2 rating. The 1.5 could be rounded down, I suppose, but I try to remain consistent in my rating methods, so I rounded up. I will use the book when pictures of parts are needed for reference, because it has more detail than an ordinary parts diagram.

 

I have only given a "2" rating once previously, and have never given a 1. I do not include a zero in the rating scale, because most rating scales do not include that value. So, there's really a 4 point range within the rating scale.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

It is definitely a number two if I've ever seen one.