The1930sRust Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 As my old post kind of fizzled out, and I am starved for things to think about, decided to start a new topic. Getting ready to drop some folding paper on an M1. I've read all I can find on the model, specifically as it relates to serial numbers. The gun in question is in the 508000 range. It's a "late production" judging by the protected rear sight assembly, but has pin levers and a crossbolt stock. I have yet to see any other M1's this high in the range. ATII shows one in the 244000 range. By a staggering coincidence, I also see an M1A1 in the 508000 range. I am sure most of you saw the pics in my other post. I've had speaks with Newtommygunner about the serial. Just wanted as much data as possible to occupy me for the next eight or so months. Also, as curious to me as the high serial number, the gun seems to have no proof marks at all. Not even the "GEG" I would expect from the civilian inspector Geo. E. Goll. Thoughts? What are your M1 serial numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stgw. 57 Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 The M1928A1: http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/theholeinthedonut/Divers/Guns/M1928A1/IMG_6827.jpg The M1: http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/theholeinthedonut/Divers/Guns/M1/IMG_6778.jpg The M1 converted into an M1A1: http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/theholeinthedonut/Divers/Guns/M1A1/IMG_6798.jpg The M1A1: http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/theholeinthedonut/Divers/Guns/IMG_7412.jpg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Purely speculation, but could the proof marks have been washed out by the refinish? Just an assumption since the rear receiver marking looks light or washed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The1930sRust Posted September 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 We talked about that, too. But all of them? Though I have yet to see the gun, I trust Mikes eyes. Nothing... I'd think at least some visual clue would be there, but I suppose it is possible... We thought perhaps it was pulled from the line before getting into the hands of the military--which would explain a lack of military proofs. But I'd still expect the GEG. Maybe that one was obliterated by the Parking. But, if it was Parked, I'd expect arsenal marks that would be visible. And if it was pulled--and didn't see any action--why does the roll marking appear so faint as if it was heavily rebuilt/Parked? CG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 If it is truly a very late model M1, perhaps it was originally sold to a PD? I would still think the GEG mark would be present, though... Any other opinions? David Alberdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Refinishing wouldn't necessarily have to happen at an arsenal. Could have been redone sometime somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The1930sRust Posted September 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 I suppose any arsenal type marks could have been "removed" prior to Parking perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 In my opinion, that is not a millitary parkerizing. I would suspect any light markings were buffed out by whoever parkerized the gun post WWII. I also don't believe that the M1 Thomspon was pulled from the line for police sales during WWII. I believe they all went to the military or overseas as aid to our allies. There were plenty of 1928 Models left over at the end of the war for civillian sales, i.e., the AO guns that have the X after the serial number and the US and 1 ground off. These were late war and post war sales. I would guess the M1 didn't start seeing police sales until they began to reimport them in the 1950's. I have a friend that just purchased a military parkerized M1 Thompson in the 200,000 serial number range that was rebuilt at the end of the war or post war as the grip frame number does not match the receiver number. The gun was purchased in 1964 from a Virginia based importer and sold directly to the Illinois police agency that has owned it since then. The gun has all early features, paddle selectors, unprotected rear sight, etc. It does have the reinforced butt stock, but that would be common with a military rebuild. The transfer has not been completed yet, but the gun may be for sale sometime in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The1930sRust Posted September 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 I know there is no grip frame serial on this model. Never heard of one being cleaned of proof marks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Is this a Savage M1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gio Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 The1930Rust, It just may be me, looks as if someone buffed the heck out of the reciever at the end of Thompson and Submachine gun. If they buffed that hard they could have buffed inspection marks off as well. Buffing is to me the hardest part of any refinishing. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The1930sRust Posted September 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Yes, Arthur, it is. Is this a Savage M1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Yes, Arthur, it is. If the "S" is still visible behind the grip mount, then I imagine the "GEG" stamp would also have survived buffing. Maybe GEG missed this one just as "JHB" missed many high serial number Colt TSMG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) The1930Rust, It just may be me, looks as if someone buffed the heck out of the reciever at the end of Thompson and Submachine gun. If they buffed that hard they could have buffed inspection marks off as well. Buffing is to me the hardest part of any refinishing. Frank Of course the receiver has been refinished, perhaps several times. Each time, it got buffed, and each time the roll markings lost definition and became more indistinct. The original inspection and acceptance marks suffered in the same processes and today are faint or gone altogether. Look at the excellent photos of the roll markings kindly provided by Stgw.57. Notice how metal was displaced during this process, resulting in minute ridges of metal around most characters. See how these tiny ridges are gone on the subject gun. They should be present, but they've been buffed off. The US government had obligations to provide weapons to police departments throughout WWII. M1 TSMGs were were taken right off of the production lines, acceptance and inspection marks and all. There was no seperate police production, and there was no "special" production within or between production contracts carried out under the US Army ordnance districts. The guns had no other markings other than the miltary markings, unless they were applied by the department or foreign power that had the gun over the years. All M1 and M1A1 TSMGs in US possession were arsenal refinished, during or shortly after WWII. The ones that were not arsenal refinished were not in US government possession, that is, domestic police guns, or those that were provided as foreign military assistance. These guns, unmodified, are the ones that we see today with early features, original blued finishes, and matching serial numbers. Edited September 24, 2012 by TSMGguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 I have a friend that just purchased a military parkerized M1 Thompson in the 200,000 serial number range that was rebuilt at the end of the war or post war as the grip frame number does not match the receiver number. The gun was purchased in 1964 from a Virginia based importer and sold directly to the Illinois police agency that has owned it since then. The gun has all early features, paddle selectors, unprotected rear sight, etc. It does have the reinforced butt stock, but that would be common with a military rebuild. The transfer has not been completed yet, but the gun may be for sale sometime in the near future. Chuck, Is this the Illinois PD M1 we got the lead on in front of our display at NRA in St. Louis? If so, I'm glad to hear a deal is about to go through... David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) Rust,I've got an early matching number Bridgeport M1 that was a GI bring back / amnesty gun. It's a Pacific theater gun that appears to have never been arsenal reworked or parked.Ultimately the second owner had it refinished and checked out by PK, unfortunately, the original furniture has been lost.The butt stock had notches on it,,, maybe kills or just for better grip??Here's some before and after photos,Darryl http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac178/DLRegister/1stweekM1_zps8239087c.jpg http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac178/DLRegister/M1-2_zps94baeb25.jpg http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac178/DLRegister/M1-14_zpsa4d93c60.jpg http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac178/DLRegister/M1-12_zpscd12161b.jpg http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac178/DLRegister/M1-17_zpscb3a0fbe.jpg http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac178/DLRegister/M1-3_zpsd9b636df.jpg Edited September 24, 2012 by darrylta 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Here's a couple more,-Darryl http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac178/DLRegister/M1-4_zps85dc5552.jpg http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac178/DLRegister/M1-15_zps182f8fc6.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas.hondo Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) Incredible gun! Great history also. Was the "Pacific theatre" reported when he registered it in1968 and on a FOIA or is this simplly from dealer/personal knowledge of the original owner? Just curious, to me that would greatly enhance the collectability /purchase price of your M1 and would be something to verify - if on a FOIA, or original Form 4 w/serviceman's DD214.Tom Edited September 24, 2012 by thomas.hando Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Tom,I have a copy of the amnesty paper work with the soldiers name and the FOIA on it.I just wish that I had the original stocks for it.I thought Rust would be interested in the stampings on it is why I posted it.-Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas.hondo Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 I just like your M1's historical lineage - just curious as to the '68 amnesty - when a vet. registered class III firearm - did he have to list what theatre it was acquired - PTO, ETO, Korea, Vietnam etc.. Which then could be potentially verified on the FOIA?Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 It was a WWII bring back.I haven't looked at the paperwork in years, I'll check it out tonight and post.-Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 I have a friend that just purchased a military parkerized M1 Thompson in the 200,000 serial number range that was rebuilt at the end of the war or post war as the grip frame number does not match the receiver number. The gun was purchased in 1964 from a Virginia based importer and sold directly to the Illinois police agency that has owned it since then. The gun has all early features, paddle selectors, unprotected rear sight, etc. It does have the reinforced butt stock, but that would be common with a military rebuild. The transfer has not been completed yet, but the gun may be for sale sometime in the near future. Chuck, Is this the Illinois PD M1 we got the lead on in front of our display at NRA in St. Louis? If so, I'm glad to hear a deal is about to go through... David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Dave, Yes, it is. The police agency accepted an offer from the Wisconsin based dealer I referred them to. The gun will probably be available for sale in a few months. It is in like new condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Tom,I have a copy of the amnesty paper work with the soldiers name and the FOIA on it.I just wish that I had the original stocks for it.I thought Rust would be interested in the stampings on it is why I posted it.-Darryl Certainly one of the nicest M1s I have ever seen! Why do you feel that the stocks are not original? They look just right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The1930sRust Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 So can proof marks be....uh....replaced? C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 (edited) TSMGguy, The gun was PK refurbished with a NOS M1 parts kit. The wood is 100% correct for the gun. Just look at the notches in the grip area of the butt stock on the original butt stock and letyour imagination run with it,,,sobering to say the least.After looking at the amnesty form, it had (9) notches.-Darryl Edited September 25, 2012 by darrylta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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