Mike Hammer Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 I need some advice. I just won an auction on a old Armalite AR-18 select fire rifle. This gun is on the NFA Curio and Relic list. I have a valid C&R FFL. The owner does not want to transfer the gun directly to me on my C&R FFL, instead he wants to transfer the gun to another SOT and then I would have to go through another transfer from that SOT. This is totally unnecessary and would cost me extra cash and whole lot of extra time. Is there anything that I can do to make them understand that there is nothing wrong with doing the one transfer directly with me? Is there anyone at ATF who I could get to explain it to these people that that it is perfectly proper and legal to do this? What are my options here other than going through with the two transfers OR telling him the deals off? Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brennon272 Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 There are NFA C&R guidelines on atf.gov. you could start by showing him the C&R list i suppose, but he is not required to transfer to you. If waittime is more important than cash, Ruben Mendoila will do a transfer to C&Rs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Mike, I bought several handguns from gunbroker this past summer. It was not unusual to find sellers who would not ship to a C&R person. Not sure why. Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Many of those refusing to ship to a C&R do not read the regulations and of those that do far too many are too dull witted to comprehend what they have read. Mike, I bought several handguns from gunbroker this past summer.It was not unusual to find sellers who would not ship to a C&R person.Not sure why.Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin601 Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) I had that problem with a Garand, the person finally agreed after they talked to a local ATF office, but then UPS would not ship it, because they were not a FFL01. Even had an FFL 1 tell me that he does not even have to honor a 03 FFL. Everyone is afraid, even if they read it in black and white. Some even think the ATF is trying to trick them into breaking the law. Go figure. Edited October 15, 2014 by Paladin601 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl7422 Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 I've had exactly this problem with a couple of nfa dealers in Texas. They claim their "ATF man" says they can only ship nfa items to another nfa dealer in another state, despite the C&R status of the weapon. Very frustrating. Your situation is addressed in a couple of places on the ATF website, search "nfa transfer to C&R" or similar terms. All you can do is quote all the ATF references you can find and hope it is enough. And remind him you are the one risking the time and (probably) the $200 on the validity of the transfer. I now ask prior to any auction or deal if the seller will accept and transfer to my valid C&R just because of nightmares like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted October 15, 2014 Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Another possibility is the sellers don't care to take a gamble on what guns are C&R and which guns are not. If they ship a gun that they thought was a C&R and it turns out not to be, they get busted. So they figure, why take a chance, just make a rule only to ship to FFLs and leave it at that. Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted October 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2014 Apparently there is some kind of stigma concerning a C&R FFL in the eyes of many FFL1 owners. They are under the false assumption that C&R holders are trying to get by with some trick to own these guns. Yet we must pass the same stringent requirements and FBI checks that they go through. Some of these people are just ignorant of the law yet they profess to run a business in this field, simply amazing! Do they think that the ATF is going to approve a transfer to someone who is not qualified to own one of these?I will copy them all the pertaining data however if they could actually speak with someone in authority from ATF , that might convince them that there is no problem in transferring the gun this way. Does anyone have a name or contact number they know that might be helpful? Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzz Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) I doubt there is any way to make the seller to send the gun if he doesn't want to. His gun, his sale, his rules. He should have put "NO C&Rs" in the ad if he didn't want to transfer to a C&R. I think a lot of guys simply don't understand the laws and they are afraid of screwing up and getting into hot water. You might try explaining to the guy that the transfer will have to be scrutinized and approved by the ATF, so it's not possible for him to make an illegal transfer. ATF obviously would not approve an illegal 04 transfer. Edited October 16, 2014 by buzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jl7422 Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 ATF obviously would not approve an illegal 04 transfer. Hahahaha. . . .ask Idan Greenburg how that worked out for him. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnshooter Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Was the description "C&R" used in the auction ad? If it was, then you might have a case for specific performance of a contract. I'm not a lawyer, but I know where they live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anticus Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 I won't do business with a seller if they don't accept my license. But most sellers I've dealt with have had no issue with a C&R tag. I haven't done any NFA transfers on it (yet), just rifles and handguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted October 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 O.K. an update on this. The seller has talked with his "local" ATF office and says he will agree to transfer it as a C&R. BUT... he advised that, and I quote "If you transfer the gun on a form 4 to your C&R license, (which is in my name) you (meaning me) may only keep ownership of the gun by keep renewing and maintaining the C&R license". This statement is not correct unless someone can chime in on this, as it is my understanding that after acquiring ownership of the weapon, you are free to dissolve your C&R license at any time and maintain ownership of the weapon even if it is a title 2 gun on the C&R list. After dissolving the C&R FFL, I merely have to maintain my C&R log book. Now I completely understand after giving up the C&R license that I could no longer transfer the gun directly to another C&R holder. But his statement that I could no longer legally own the gun is false is it not? Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougStump Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's false, he's wrong. But I wouldn't argue with him until the transfer is complete. Once it's in your possession you can either forget it, or enjoy pissing him off proving him wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 MH yes you can transfer it direct to any seller to your C+R. If you let your license lapse you are still allowed to keep it. You can still transfer the gun directly to another C+R holder regardless of whether or not you hold a current C+R license, even out of state. The only inherent problems occur with obtaining insurance with common carriers and with some items shipping USPS without an FFL. Depends on the item, destination and the license of the shipper and receiver, title one or title 2. I only have one SOT I trust to do transfers without my assistance. All the rest have to send the forms back to me to finish them and send in correct documents. So far this year 4 SOT's have failed to properly prepare forms including most recently Rock island auction. One guy is new, another guy has had an SOT for at least 10 years. All of these would have gotten kicked back for problems. I probably do more transfers than most SOT's and mine are to a corp. C+R so that adds another layer that most folks are not familiar with. I've had 2 or 3 of 100 kicked back in 15 years and of that one was an ATF error and another a crook that attempted to sell me post samples. It's not rocket science but does require some common sense and experience helps. I've had a one or two SOT's refuse to transfer as well. Get your money back and move on would be my advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted October 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Sure, I knew he was wrong, I was just amazed that a person in the firearms business could spout such bull and sound so cock-sure that it made me pause for a moment. I'll do the transfer although doing high dollar business with ignorant people always makes me uneasy. Really it's all about getting the paperwork correct for ATF, there the ones that count. I'll maintain my C&R regardless until I stop acquiring additions to my collection. One clarification I'm unsure of is if I discontinue my C&R license and if I dispose (sell) the weapon, if I must sell it to an SOT first or could I also sell it to a C&R holder directly ? Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Several years ago prior to obtaining my SOT I asked a NFA dealer if I could pick up a Thompson I had bought from him on my C&R at the Show of Shows. He informed me that as a C&R he could only ship the gun to me, I could not pick it up from him in person. After a couple of weeks going back and forth through emails where I provided him copies of the ATF regulations did he finally and reluctantly agree to let me pick the gun up. I do not believe he was ever convinced it was legal I think he just got tired of arguing about it. MH yes you can transfer it direct to any seller to your C+R. If you let your license lapse you are still allowed to keep it. You can still transfer the gun directly to another C+R holder regardless of whether or not you hold a current C+R license, even out of state. The only inherent problems occur with obtaining insurance with common carriers and with some items shipping USPS without an FFL. Depends on the item, destination and the license of the shipper and receiver, title one or title 2. I only have one SOT I trust to do transfers without my assistance. All the rest have to send the forms back to me to finish them and send in correct documents. So far this year 4 SOT's have failed to properly prepare forms including most recently Rock island auction. One guy is new, another guy has had an SOT for at least 10 years. All of these would have gotten kicked back for problems. I probably do more transfers than most SOT's and mine are to a corp. C+R so that adds another layer that most folks are not familiar with. I've had 2 or 3 of 100 kicked back in 15 years and of that one was an ATF error and another a crook that attempted to sell me post samples. It's not rocket science but does require some common sense and experience helps. I've had a one or two SOT's refuse to transfer as well. Get your money back and move on would be my advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 To pass along words of wisdom from a friend that works at an unnamed government agency - "A licensee can receive from any one." One clarification I'm unsure of is if I discontinue my C&R license and if I dispose (sell) the weapon, if I must sell it to an SOT first or could I also sell it to a C&R holder directly ? Mike Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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