Battle of the Submachine Guns, Thompson vs...

[thirtyround]

Gentlemen,

 

There is a four part YouTube shootout performed by Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn that is entertaining and well filmed. I am unable to post the links however, but it is easily found by the topic. Unfortunately, statements made concerning the Thompson are blasphemous in the least.

The TSMG is compared side by side in shooting demonstrations on targets timed with speed and magazine changes with the Grease Gun and Vector. Both of the other guns are fine weapons but.....

I invite your viewing and your comments.

 

 

 

 

 

[Big Al]

 

Edited February 3, 2015 by Big Al

[Big Al]

 

[deerslayer]

If they had done the tca steel plate shoot which was five targets with the middle being a crossover pair.... I think the thompson would have eaten them both for lunch.

[jim c 351]

Well Kriss my a$$.

Its obvious that those two gentlemen spend very little time watching subgun matches, much less participating in said matches.

If either one signed up at Knob Creek subgun matches they would depart with their Kriss's between their legs.

Back in 2007, K Hackenthorn showed up at the Tracie Hill club show. I inquired if he was going to show us how it was done on range day.

He apparently had Kressing business at home.

The conclusions and tests were stupid.

Jim C

[mnshooter]

Comparing a 2 shot burst (meaning, one quick trigger pull per target) is not "as equal as possible".

But, let's also add a red dot sight against the issue iron sights.

 

Plus, somehow conclude, the M1 is "not really as reliable as people want you to think...".

The same as your reviews, Ken.

 

 

Also: Never knew until today that the M1A1 has a Blish Lock.

Edited February 3, 2015 by mnshooter

[Uncle Dudley]

It looks like in the heat of battle you could easily place your hand in front of the Kriss barrel. OUCH!

[Speeddemon02]

The videos were dissappointing, but found the comments somewhat more entertaining. Its clear he doesn't have much time with them or knowledge. Old Hollywood movies show better understanding.

[dalbert]

If they had done the tca steel plate shoot which was five targets with the middle being a crossover pair.... I think the thompson would have eaten them both for lunch.

 

I certainly agree with Deerslayer. The cyclic rate on the Greasegun is too slow for the steel shoot. The cyclic rate on the Kriss is too high, and even if you used the 2-round burst mode (the matches require full auto only), it would probably throw off your timing during the steel shoot. The Thompson is the best .45 ACP subgun for steel matches, in my opinion.

 

Larry Vickers has contacted me in the past, and I'll reach out to him with a link to this post to see if he wishes to participate.

 

I got the feeling that he may have been shooting the Thompson for the first time. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think he's had much practice with it. The tendency for the barrel to rise to that extent during firing is usually attributable to beginner experience with the Thompson.

 

I will say that the Thompson is heavy, and that the magazines are more easily inserted in the other 2 weapons. However, with familiarity, we have seen in the steel shoot that Thompson magazine changes are very quick, to the point that magazine change-out time is probably not a factor to someone who has practiced it. Reliability issues with the Thompson are usually due to magazine issues, or failure of the shooter to completely seat the magazine in the weapon. These issues are overcome through proper maintenance and practice.

 

An SBR Kriss was mentioned as a good home defense weapon a couple for times during the video. Of course, this is only my opinion, but I think an M1911, or other .45 ACP pistol is a better choice, and probably one with fewer potential civil issues after the fact, should use become necessary.

 

Ken Hackathorn did attend Tracie's Show and Shoot in 2007, as Jim mentions, and I too, would have liked to have seen him participate in the Saturday shoot. The Thompson proficiency demonstrated during the paper and steel shoots during TCA and TATA matches is exceptional.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[dalbert]

I heard back from Mr. Vickers, and he does not wish to participate in the discussion.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[Kilroy]

I heard back from Mr. Vickers, and he does not wish to participate in the discussion.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

I guess that says it all

[buzz]

As Ben Graham said,

 

“You're neither right nor wrong because other people agree with you.

 

You're right because your facts are right and your reasoning is right - and that's the only thing that makes you right.”

 

 

A bunch of videos of celebrity tacticool gurus repeating gun-shop BS back and forth doesn't add any new facts to the pool of data.

 

The Thompson was used over a period of 30+ years and two major wars.

 

There's no more thorough test than that, if the gun had any flaws they were found out.

 

 

How many wars has the Kriss fought? How many armies adopted it?

Edited February 3, 2015 by buzz

[Jjeewweelltt]

The tommy is still the coolest gun especially with the 50 round drum ,it just get respect any where you go with it.cool factor counts too.

[dalbert]

 

I heard back from Mr. Vickers, and he does not wish to participate in the discussion.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

I guess that says it all

 

It doesn't quite say it all. His actual words were very different than "he does not wish to participate in the discussion," but I guess that's his prerogative.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[Paladin601]

Give someone a TV show and they become experts, even with false statements. Just like Sons of Guns

Edited February 3, 2015 by Paladin601

[mnshooter]

 

 

I heard back from Mr. Vickers, and he does not wish to participate in the discussion.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

I guess that says it all

 

It doesn't quite say it all. His actual words were very different than "he does not wish to participate in the discussion," but I guess that's his prerogative.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

Unless there is some agreement to secrecy, I hope his actual words can be published in full.

Normally, those people referred to in the (Post #12) Ben Graham reference are willing to stand behind their statements.

Edited February 3, 2015 by mnshooter

[dalbert]

 

 

 

I heard back from Mr. Vickers, and he does not wish to participate in the discussion.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

I guess that says it all

 

It doesn't quite say it all. His actual words were very different than "he does not wish to participate in the discussion," but I guess that's his prerogative.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

Unless there is some agreement to secrecy, I hope his actual words can be quoted in full.

Normally, those people referred to in the (Post #12) Ben Graham reference are willing to stand behind their statements.

 

I'd rather not post what he said publicly in the forum. Suffice it to say I expected a more diplomatic response.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[jim c 351]

It should come as no surprise that Larry and Ken's ego may have suffered a slight bruising by our opinions.

They do videos and articles that appear in Commando Joe's guns magazines which cater to the ignorant public who are unaware that its possible to lawfully own a machine gun.

These people accept their conclusions as the word of God.

Larry and Ken's worst night mare is to meet some one that's knows what they are talking about.

They can both thank the Lord that Chuck Taylor isn't a member here. He used a M1A1 in VN to shoot people.

If Chuck responded here he would really lay into Larry and Ken.

Jim C

[ron_brock]

And with David's post I believe that says it all. Looking forward to watching the video tonight.

 

Ron

[buzz]

I'm not surprised at all that Larry was not interested in participating in this forum.

 

People often use a lot of logic errors when they present an opinion.

Over the last 3,000 years the logic errors have been compiled into a formal list known as the "Logic Fallacies"

Logic Fallacies are arguments that sound OK on the surface but actually contain a fatal logic flaw.

 

One such fallacy is called "The Appeal to Authority".

 

That fallacy occurs when someone says something like this:

"Larry Vickers is considered by many to be a great authority on guns. Therefore, his statements are all probably correct."

That sounds reasonable on the surface but in reality it won't help you determine the truth about a particular statement.

Many, many people considered to be experts have been wrong about many, many things.

 

Since the video tactical gurus make their living on the basis of that Logic Fallacy, they naturally won't participate when they're challenged to support their opinion with actual facts and logic.

 

2.7 million Thompsons were made and put into worldwide front-line service from 1921 to 1971.

There is no possible way to conduct a more thorough scientific test than that.

Global warfare is the ultimate test.

If the Thompson had all these glaring flaws it would have been discovered over that term of service.

Edited February 4, 2015 by buzz

[j.hayes1942]

Why isn't Chuck Taylor a member here? I love to read what he has to say. jh

[dalbert]

Let's look at what Mr. Vickers presented in his video from a factual basis...

 

The graphic below is only 60% correct on 5 presented points. The 3 that are correct would be difficult to get wrong. The accuracy of the graphic rates a "D-," or an "F," depending upon the professor grading the assignment.

 

 

• There is no Blish lock in an M1, or in an M1A1 Thompson
• The whole M1 design was intended to simplify the weapon by eliminating the Blish lock, and reduce overall production costs
• M1's do not get to 1500 RPM...Some have been clocked as high as 1000 RPM, but a 900 RPM range of ROF is not factual for this weapon

Now let's look at it from the opinions stated within...

 

I realize that Mr. Hackathorn's statement that the M3 is a "far superior weapon" to the Thompson is a statement of opinion, but I doubt that many support that opinion. It was not supported by the results of the tests in the video. His further statement that he would choose the M3 10 times over the Thompson is certainly a unique position.

 

Mr. Vickers' overall conclusion that the Thompson is "not that great of a gun" is also a unique conclusion. I suggest he consult the long list of Medal of Honor recipients featured in the pinned post at the top of this forum...All of whom used the Thompson to defend our country with valor. He could then make a better informed decision as to whether the Thompson is/was a great weapon, or not.

 

I hope that Mr. Vickers sees this. I applaud his effort to make the video in the first place, and I liked its premise. However, his lack of familiarity with the history, technical data, and operational use of the Thompson were apparent.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[buzz]

Maybe they got the 1500 RPM idea from the prototype Thompsons?

 

 

That video would be lapped up like gravy on the "tactical gun" websites, which is the target audience.

 

To me those kind of videos always seem like a glorified version of a bunch of guys standing around the gun counter telling each other stuff they heard.

 

"I heard them MAC10s they used in Nam would blow up in yer hand sometimes but they used em because they could fire AK47 ammo."

[gunhistorian]

I sort of like the idea of a "shoot-out" comparing various weapons, but shouldn't they be of the more-or-less same vintage? I'd really like to see a comparison between the M1A-1 and the M-50 Reising, for example. Or a Johnson semi-auto rifle and the M-1 Garand. Or a JLMG and the BAR. (Or even between the BAR and the Monitor. . .) I blasted the NRA demonstrator on a clip (video) they did on the JLMG because it simply wasn't entirely factual.

[Big Al]

If I may offer my opinion (for whatever it is worth), after firing a mere 150 rounds through an M1 during my trip to the Manchester Firing Line, (link to my thread here: http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17244&hl=) I feel I could best Mr Vickers in a contest of Thompsons. I was able to keep the gun in the center of the target with no issue at 20, 40, and 60 feet, even when emptying the magazine in one continuous burst. I simply followed the technique outlined in the US Army training film for the Thompson. Stagger the feet, lean forward at the waist, support the gun with the left hand, and control the climb with the right.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Big Al