When do you give up on correcting a registration?

[bmarvin]

I own a factory Colt 27A with the semi parts installed.

In the 1930's it was registered by the Federal Reserve as a short barreled carbine.

All the transfers since then have been short barrel carbine or short barrel rifle.

One transfer in the 1990's had a note stating that the gun should be a machine gun but it was approved as a SBR.

The ATF's stance is "once a machine gun, always a machine gun".

The 27A uses the same receiver as every other Colt Thompson ever made which makes it a

machine gun.

For 2 years I've tried to correct the registration. The ATF does not want to add any transferable

machine guns to the registry and have denied my requests on 3 separate occasions. The last one

was denied by Ted Clutter himself.

So do I let it go?

 

 

[06AngusSG]

Without knowing exactly what you are asking and what they are telling you back..... I'd let it go. They surely know what you have. I'm guessing you made it known that it is a full auto and in your possetion? Yet they aren't asking for you to turn it in.

 

Just look at what happened with the Sig Pistol "Arm Brace" Sig did their due dilligance and applied it to the ATF for opinion. It is obvious that it's a workround so you can have an SBR w/o a tax stamp. Nevertheless the ATF approved it as a pistol brace and nothing but. Whether you use it as designed or shoulder it as if it were a rifle. However, some dude (I believe in CA) asked 3 more times about it and the ATF re-ruled that the brace is legal as long as used as designed. Now they say if the user shoulders it to fire now you have just manufactured an illeagle SBR....

 

In short, if they are letting you keep it as is... stop poking the bear.

 

Jon

[TD.]

Question: Will they approve transfer to a new owner (or an out of state dealer on behalf of a new owner) as a SBR?

[bmarvin]

Yes, they will approve a transfer as a SBR.

I spoke to Ted Clutter as I have corrected the registry in the past.

I have an amnesty registered Auto Burglar gun that was listed as a short barreled shotgun

versus an AOW. A letter and a phone call to Mr Clutter cleared it up.

 

He told me that it is nearly impossible to add a transferable machine gun to the registry which is what

I was doing via a correction.

 

I guess I let sleeping dogs lie.

[jim c 351]

bmarvin,

I guess you own a 27 that can never be converted to FA. Will that effect the value.???

Jim C

[bmarvin]

bmarvin,

I guess you own a 27 that can never be converted to FA. Will that effect the value.???

Jim C

Actually, a 27 is worth less if it is converted to automatic. The original parts (semi) are

worth more than the full auto parts

[Merry Ploughboy]

I used to own a 28 Navy that had been registered as a 21A when new, and was sent back to AOC by the police department that bought it to be modified to the 28 Navy configuration sometime in the 1930's. According to the documents in the response to a FOIA request that I had conducted, it took a prior owner in the 1970's a two page detailed explanation and photographs to get the gun model changed on the Form 4.

 

Best of luck!

[buzz]

I would let sleeping dogs lie

 

the ATF can be pretty random about their rulings.

[wwl]

I have a Colt 1927AC that is converted to FA and registered as a machinegun on the form 4, but I also have the 4 parts to convert it back to semi-auto only. This must be somewhat unusual.

[Grasshopper]

Hi All,

 

Sort of the same problem I've got with a Remington Model 17 Police Special. I've looked at it carefully and it all looks factory but it is registered as a SBS as opposed to an AOW. Likely not woth the trouble in this case.

 

Just curious. With respect to the OP, in the past did BATF ever decree that 1927 Thompsons are MGs? As noted, they have MG receivers. Evidently they did it with the Spitfire SMG even if it was in the S/A carbine configuration from the factory. I think the 1927 regestered as a SBR is even more unique.

 

Just thinking,

 

Grasshopper

[Sandman1957]

Brian,

I would type a memo for the record stating all the facts, include enclosures of all BATFE letters to and from you regarding this matter. Include paragraphs relevant to the phone conversations. Have the letter notarized, send a copy to your local CLEO, and a copy to the NFA Branch.

I would clearly state in the letter that per the BATFE direction you have recieved, you will treat this serial numbered firearm as a SBR, but it does retain the capability to become a Machinegun if the lower reciever were to be swapped out, or if the internal parts of the existing lower were changed.

I would keep those memo's with the gun and pass them along to the next future owner.

S/Fi,

Sandman1957

[bmarvin]

Hi All,

 

Sort of the same problem I've got with a Remington Model 17 Police Special. I've looked at it carefully and it all looks factory but it is registered as a SBS as opposed to an AOW. Likely not woth the trouble in this case.

 

Just curious. With respect to the OP, in the past did BATF ever decree that 1927 Thompsons are MGs? As noted, they have MG receivers. Evidently they did it with the Spitfire SMG even if it was in the S/A carbine configuration from the factory. I think the 1927 regestered as a SBR is even more unique.

 

Just thinking,

 

Grasshopper

I changed an Auto Burglar gun from SBS to AOW without any issue. It's easy because new AOW's and SBS's can still be produced. The 1927 Colt is simply a 1921 with different fire control parts in the lower. All 1921 Colts are machineguns in the eyes of the ATF. I had a second 27AC that I transferred out as a SBR and the ATf rejected and told me to correct it to machine gun. I try and be proactive on this one and they reject machine gun in favor of SBR

[TD.]

Sandman1957,

I agree with everything you say except sending a notarized letter to the local CLEO and the ATF. Sending a package like this places this issue back into the hands of people who can make a decision you may not like. And be forced to litigate. Brian has acted like a reasonable person in the eyes of the law bringing this issue to proper authority. Accept their decision and let sleeping dogs lie!

[bmarvin]

Brian,

I would type a memo for the record stating all the facts, include enclosures of all BATFE letters to and from you regarding this matter. Include paragraphs relevant to the phone conversations. Have the letter notarized, send a copy to your local CLEO, and a copy to the NFA Branch.

I would clearly state in the letter that per the BATFE direction you have recieved, you will treat this serial numbered firearm as a SBR, but it does retain the capability to become a Machinegun if the lower reciever were to be swapped out, or if the internal parts of the existing lower were changed.

I would keep those memo's with the gun and pass them along to the next future owner.

S/Fi,

Sandman1957

This gun is well documented in various books by serial number. The books describe the process of converting a 1921 to a 1927. I attached all that documentation as well as a copy of the mid 1990's transfer that has noted by inspector Thomas Busey that item 3b should read machine gun. The ATF still denied my change in status to MG.

[buzz]

In spite of what people think, the ATF are not firearms experts and they are not gun collectors.

 

The ATF guy won't really know what you're talking about, he won't understand the little differences between Thompson models, and he won't care.

 

If you keep pressing them, the ATF will do the easy thing for them and the safe thing for them.

 

I say this based on 25+ years of working on government projects.

 

The person on the other end of the phone could not care less whether your gun is an SBR or whether it's getting fed into a smelter. He's just flogging away at his paperwork.

 

It seems to me that the default policy of ATF is to not make changes. Which is what happened in this case, they said the gun will remain as an SBR.

 

There was a time when ATF was going to declare all un-installed FNC full auto sears to be contraband because guys kept asking if the FNC sears could be installed in AR15s.

 

If people just keep pestering ATF, they will eventually give everyone the finger and make a ruling, and it's not always a happy day.

Edited October 23, 2015 by buzz

[emmagee1917]

I would not send the letter .

I also would not have the full auto parts .

You might consider asking , for the record , if it would be allowed to have the FA parts in it .

I bet they'd say no .

If me , I'd leave it be .

Chris

[The Lone Ranger]

marvin - did you get told specifically that your 1927 is the only one that is not a MG? If so, you need to let your "helper" know about that.

[mnshooter]

I sent a correction request last January.

This month I received a letter saying: "the correction you requested has been made to the registry".

No mention of any details. No serial Number. Nothing.

So, I still have no idea, or proof -if the correction was made as requested.

[bmarvin]

marvin - did you get told specifically that your 1927 is the only one that is not a MG? If so, you need to let your "helper" know about that.

I was never told that mine was the only 27 Colt registered as a SBR but I track 27's fairly well and I've never seen another

nor has any dealer I spoke with. I have been in regular contact with my "helper" who is also anxious to see how this plays out

[The Lone Ranger]

I did a poor job of asking that question - should have been "Did you get told again that you 27 is not a MG?" That aspect should be a very attainable fix given ATF's past pontification on the topic.

[Black River Militaria CII]

I know of another Colt '27 that is registered as an SBR unless this is the same one, which I suspect it is. Did it come from the Michael Free auction?

[bmarvin]

I know of another Colt '27 that is registered as an SBR unless this is the same one, which I suspect it is. Did it come from the Michael Free auction?

It did not come from Mike Free. It was owned by Tim Bixler at one time

[Black River Militaria CII]

The small collection of MGs that was auctioned off by the State of PA to pay restitution to Free's fraud victims included a '27 Thompson that was apparently also registered as an SBR. The transfer status of the gun was revealed during the bidding phase of the auction when there was an effort to get permission for all bidders to view the Mgs and the current registration paperwork. Permission was never granted for all bidders, but one bidder successfully viewed the guns and the paperwork and it was revealed that the '27 had the SBR registration.

So, evidently, there are now two SBR '27s.......

 

Bob Naess

Black River Militaria CII

Edited October 26, 2015 by Black River Militaria CII

[bmarvin]

Very interesting. I have Mike's gun down as a 27ac #4926

[wwl]

Under BATF's rule of "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" how can a Colt 1927 ever be a SBR? It would seem to me that a court challenge to ATF's determination that a 27 regestered as a SBR cannot be changed on the Form 3 or 4 to that of machinegun would not be sustained. Following the ATF on this one, if a Colt 1921A could be converted to a 1927SBR why not a M2 Carbine to M1 by removing the M2 parts? or a M16 to AR15 by removing the full-auto parts? Another question===would ATF allow a transfer of a Colt 1927 registered as a SBR to a state that did not allow machineguns?