what color would you make your wood

[huggytree]

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n531/waukeshaplumbing/DSCN3873_zpsmmxydyqu.jpg

 

 

got this foregrip in the mail today....i believe it to be original finish..i collect antique furniture and have a decent eye for old finishes.....the screw heads are flawless on the swivel, so i think it hasnt been off in a long time....this is a 1940 Savage grip

 

my gun has refinished wood and was missing this piece...

 

i plan to refinish all the wood to match and am curious what color it should be.....this grip is a very dark/chocolate brown......since its the only piece i have that i believe is untouched its the direction i am thinking of going....to have all the wood stripped and stained and in the end match this color and sheen

 

what have others done? do you bring it back to correct 1940 color? or is it preferred to keep it looking like mine is---aged color

 

any photo's of what you have done and why you chose the color.....

Edited March 25, 2016 by huggytree

[shadycon]

SKY-BLUE-PINK***********************************

[Uncle Dudley]

Nice score on the grip. I believe you would have to see the color in 1940 in order to see exactly what it was, and then it probably wouldn't match the ones laying next to it on the production bench. 76 years of gun oil, cosmoline, sweat, dirt, and who knows what--plus the effects of oxidation and ultraviolet, only let you see what it is now. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Thanks for posting the picture "as found".

 

U D

[huggytree]

so Dudley is that a vote for refinish to match original grip?....thats my thinking right now.....i like the dark brown

[buzz]

Wood finish darkens up with age, so the original color would have been much lighter.

 

Gently strip the old finish off the grip with a product made for that purpose and very lightly sand with a fine grit sandpaper.

 

The grip, like most American gun stocks, is made from American black walnut.

 

The best stain for that kind of wood is walnut stain, pick one of the orange toned stains to warm up the color.

 

As opposed to the dark brown / greenish walnut stains.

 

Birchwood casey walnut stain is very nice. The water based Minwax walnut stain is also good.

 

Top it off with a wiping varnish like minwax tung oil and you are GTG.

 

Don't use any products unless they are specifically designed to be used on wood, in spite of the truly bizarre recommendations you get from gun boards.

Edited March 26, 2016 by buzz

[Kocapuff1]

Huggytree,

See my pictures below. The pictures are of my replica 1921 wood set, for my next Replica/Display model Colt Thompson 1921A project. The wood is "Dan Block" vertical grip and 21 lower frame grip, the stock was a GI 1928 never used, never stained stock. I used the Formula VIII stain below for the military light brown with red hue. I know that Colt Thompsons' never came with this light brown/red tone color, but I love the color and wanted the color for this stock set for the 21A. I give thanks to Chuck "GIJIVE", he taught me how to work the 8 coats of Boiled Linseed Oil, after the application of stain, and the end result is beautiful.

 

AIR ART AVIATION - MILITARY STOCK STAIN - Formula XIII - light brown with red tone.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/wood-stains/military-stock-stain-prod7677.aspx

 

1st Picture: Dan Block wood as it comes standard walnut and his stain.

2nd Picture: All 3 pieces of wood together and I stained initially the stock with some Dan block stain, (this is what I started with before applying the Formula VIII Military Stain.

3rd Picture: Wood stained initially with the Formula XIII stain, I stained a little too much at first and took some stain off with thinner.

4th Picture: In process of apply the first coats of Boiled Linseed Oil. 1 Coat a day for 8 days

5th Picture: More in process coats

Final Pictures: 8 coats of linseed oil complete and beautiful look

 

Edited March 26, 2016 by Kocapuff1

[Orion]

Kocapuff1 nice job on the Thompson wood that looks outstanding!

 

Andy

[shadycon]

Very Nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kocapuff1]

Thank you guys. It was my "first" ever staining and linseed oil job stock finishing. The reddish hue military stain is very good looking. The boiled linseed oil application is like the original process.

[Black River Militaria CII]

In my opinion, this grip should remain as it is. It is a valuable antique showing its age, and experience and has value to those collectors who want a vintage grip for their Brit Thnompson or whatever they have. It is already difficult to find good examples of vintage grips, especially Colts, and the arguments about whether a grip is original or not testify to the fact that fewer and fewer people actually get to see and handle correct, original grips, so have no way to understand and compare. Devaluing old, used vintage equipment because they are old is nothing new, and the constant use of these parts to make them "new", since they are scruffy or not shiney, just reduces the store of vintage examples for future reference. It is cultural cleansing of a sort.

It is discouraging to see vintage examples of equipment pimped up for no other reason than it can be done and the owner just wants to show he can do it. There are exceptional modern made replica grips available for experimentation and modification which are the appropriate candidates for such exercises. Leave the original, vintage examples alone! FWIW

[OCM]

Kocapuff-

outstanding work.

 

 

OCM

[huggytree]

The grip has a crack on the other side. I'm also trying to fill in and disguise the English swivel. If it had neither flaw I would keep it original and refinish the other pieces of wood to match. I agree it would be nice to keep it original. Maybe I can find someone skilled enough to fill in the holes without it showing with keeping the original finish.

 

Thanks for all the replies and especially the photos and instructions how you have done it. That's exactly what I was looking for.

[ron_brock]

I'd keep the swivel, it's original part of the history, but that's just me. You're now the caretaker so you can paint it gold if you like. It will just mean one less original vertical British grip out there.

 

Ron

[Kocapuff1]

Huggytree,

 

FWIW I agree with Black River Militia. I would not go modifying the British mod vertical grip you purchased... It's beautiful original and that's important also for value and the historical significance, but that grip needs a re-fresh and you could do the below to the rest of the wood, so it all matches.. Originality is very important and you have a piece a history there, but again the wood needs to preserved properly and needs a re-freshening.

 

What I would do is: Remove the swivel for cleaning of the swivel and grip. Use Hoppe's bore cleaner to both items and get all the old linseed and other oils out of the wood. Then use 000 or 0000 steel wool and take of the lighter scratches and smooth and polish the wood some and make sure you are not hurting it and make sure not to loose the lines on both sides, etc. Re-clean with Hoppe's bore cleaner and clean up the original sling swivel.. Then when the wood is all dry start applying boiled linseed oil (LSO), which you can buy from Ace Hardware, smoothly apply 1 coat a day, 1 would spend about 15 minutes rubbing it in with a 100 percent cotton towel that is very smooth, like a t-shirt outside. Then I would leave the LSO really thick and smooth on the grip for about 15 minutes, then wipe of excess very lightly and let dry for 24 hours. Repeat process for 7 to 8 days.

 

Don't dowel rod and remove the swivel! Leave it, that is original and cool. Someday in the future Huggytree, you'll find a Savage vertical grip without the swivel and you'll be buying it, don't do modifying the history of this one. YOUR GRIP YOU REALLY WANT WILL APPEAR IN THE FUTURE, just be patient and for now enjoy this vertical grip!

 

Hope this helps and just my 2 cents and what I have learned from others; thank you Chuck and Paul!

Edited March 26, 2016 by Kocapuff1

[huggytree]

Thanks

[buzz]

What black river wrote is 100% correct.

 

 

Anything you do to an old gun to remove the patina de-values the gun.

 

In antique collecting, "patina" refers to oxidation and discoloration of metal.

 

In gun collecting it also refers to old darkened wood finish and that hard varnish of hand grease, dirt and gun oil that metal parts aquire from actual use and age.

 

Gun collectors want the patina, not shiny and new looking guns.

 

Many a guy has "polished up" a bayonet with steel wool and turned a $150 item into a $20 item.

 

 

What gun guys do to gun stocks is completely bizarre , no furniture refinisher on earth would do what we do to wood.

 

Putting caustic cleaning chemicals on wood is never done by professional furniture restorers.

 

Using shoe polish to dye wood a weird coppery color is never done.

 

Putting wood in a dishwasher is never done.

 

Using dye instead of pigmented stain on hardwood is never done.

 

Staining black walnut a red color to look like mahogany is never done.

 

Building up layer upon layer of a soft finish like boiled linseed oil is never done. Linseed oil never gets truly hard, so building it up is pointless.

 

Staining black walnut gunstocks red to look like mahogany is a new thing, it's not an authentic color.

 

To be fair, finishing wood is confusing because the manufacturers labels products in a confusing manner. But the wood finishing advice you get on gun boards is often either wrong or actually harmful.

 

People on gun boards say they do weird stuff like used plain minwax wood sealer on a stock, and then put some weird clothing dye on top and top it with 20 coats of BLO that they rub on in some complicated ritual. And you look at the finished stock, all the figure in the wood is washed out and the wood is burned by the harsh cleaner they used. It makes no sense on any level.

Edited March 26, 2016 by buzz

[buzz]

Check this out -

 

This gun was proudly displayed on a gun board as a fine example of how to refinish a garand stock.

 

See how the wood is burned a blackish color and you cannot see the grain in the wood? And the color has a metallic undertone.

 

It's an awful job, everything done wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

what should he have done instead?

 

use a cleaner made for wood

 

use a stain made for walnut

 

use BLO if he wants but maybe choose a harder oil finish like Tru Oil or Danish Oil.

 

walnut is literally the easiest wood to finish, it looks beautiful even without stain.

 

and applying oil finish is easy. wipe on the finish, wipe off excess, let dry. repeat but don't build up a shiny surface layer

Edited March 26, 2016 by buzz

[Kocapuff1]

Buzz,

 

Your "opinions" are stated as facts. While some of your opinions can/could be correct, other opinions are completely conjecture and that is why you should be stating them all of it as your opinion, not fact/self evident.

 

Maybe you could help him and show him pictures of all your gun stock work restoration and your share your opinions of completing the work he wants of matching all 3 stock parts.

 

My opinions/knowledge on refreshing his stocks came from individuals with vast knowledge of years of doing the work and specifically in the Thompson community, on Thompson original stock equipment.. Huggytree's lower frame grip and stock have been re-finished already and he wants them to all to match, which most people would want, not mismatched items.

 

There are plenty of examples, all over the world, of original military Thompson walnut stocks with a reddish-hue color and not just original walnut color or brown stain color... I have been to many museums all over the world, during my military deployments, and seen first hand the variations in color of military Thompson stock colors. I also have the variations of colors of the stock items and the stocks were never re-done and you can see the colors difference in the inside portion of the horizontal grips and that part of the wood was virgin from when it was originally finished.

[buzz]

I am very skeptical about everything people tell me and this attitude has served me very well.

 

 

Dump some boiled linseed oil on a flat piece of glass. Let it sit for a year. Then you can take your fingernail and scrape it right off the glass, it will still be pretty soft.

 

It is literally the softest and weakest wood finish you can find. It was used because it was dirt cheap.

 

Go ahead an use it if you like, but understand what you are using.

 

 

I've seen plenty of red toned old gunstocks but the effect is not what people end up with when they use red on walnut.

 

They end up with a mahogany color, it looks nice sometimes but it doesn't look authentic.

 

For every reddish old walnut stock, there are 1000 that just look like old brown walnut.

 

 

Look at the picture of the garand that I posted above. Does that look good to you?

 

To me it looks like a burned and bleached walnut with no figure and a slime of BLO sitting on top of a hard layer of naptha.

 

And yet I took the picture from a website of a "gun expert" a guy with decades of experience.

Edited March 27, 2016 by buzz

[buzz]

The best book you'll ever find on wood finishing is "understanding wood finishing" by Bob Flexner

 

 

Basically what you find in the wood finishing marketplace are:

 

pigmented stains with varnish added to seal the wood. like all the oil based minwax stains

 

pigmented stain with no varnish added. like minwax water based stain or birchwood casey stain

 

old fashioned oil finishes that are soft and pretty weak. Like tung oil and BLO

 

oil finishes that are a blend of linseed oil or tung oil and some kind of resin varnish to toughen them up. Like Danish oil, teak oil, minwax tung oil.

 

pure resin finishes like varathane that look like a coat of plastic

 

 

that's it, there is no big mystery

 

all you need to stain walnut is some pigmented stain and a couple of coats of some oil type finish to go on top.

Edited March 27, 2016 by buzz

[huggytree]

im going to most likely take it to a local furniture repair person ive used in the past....see what he thinks of fixing the crack.....deer slayer says he can fix it for me also

 

im curious of the color behind the swivel....if its stained black or if it shows the original color behind it.....

 

im probably going to have a local furniture guy refinish it all(havent completely decided yet as i am also a very good furniture refinisher with probably 25 pieces redone by me when i was younger and also all my woodwork in my home)..........you do have me rethinking removing the swivel.....odds are it would always show and id rather have the swivel than have the 2 holes show....the swivel helps prove its an early S foregrip

 

i will most likely not leave it original(sorry).....i want it all to match.....ive had broken antique chairs fixed to perfection by this one local guy.....im hoping he can fix that crack to the point where its invisible and as strong as new..

 

i may pay the 2nd 50% on my gun next week and pay extra to have him ship me the gun minus the receiver.

 

i appreciate all your opinions

Edited March 27, 2016 by huggytree

[Kocapuff1]

Huggytree,

 

Dan Block "Deer Slayer" is who I would recommend to use with your vertical grip fixing and restoration..... Go to his website: http://www.thompsonstocks.com/ to check out. He's a professional, he's reasonable at what he charges, and he deals with Thompson stock parts all the time and variety of stains.. You won't go wrong.

 

Happy Easter!

[huggytree]

agreed..ive emailed him about this already......im considering him

 

i know from reviews here he would do a great job

 

 

he is a busy guy, but i also have 4-5 months to get it done anyways

[MARK2112]

I used a sedona red minwax color and tru oil.my color is an outstanding vintage dark mahaugany thats so close to original colt wood.

[John Ryan]

Huggytree, I bought the other TSMG grip your seller was selling (horizontal brit modded w checkering and swivel.) I paid 10 bucks. I digress.

I saw the crack on your grip in the auction. The ordnance fix for that would be a to push it together with glue, clamp it and run a brass screw through the repair. Once dried, the ends of the brass repair screw are nipped off to the surface level. For yours, that would be a strong and appropriate repair.

I’m one of the ones who thinks the brit mounted swivel should stay. Heck find a brit butt stock and an enfield sling to go with it.

Without seeing it in person, the only thing I would do to it would be fix the crack with a brass screw and glue. Maybe denatured alcohol wipe down and some some tung oil finish or BLO just to deepen the surface glow. ( Not a built finish)

I wonder if many furniture guys a equally qualified on rare gunstocks.

The description Buzz gave about the make up of the available finishes on the market showed a lot of insight and experience. I’m mostly down on BLO too (on new wood). Still, it has uses as finish cleaner/ freshener.

I can appreciate the impulse to match wood. It’s primal OCD stuff. I’ll confess to making a few mistakes in wood before learning some restraint. An original worn gun will tell a story. If your guns story is “the stocks got swapped”, so be it. Thats still a good story.