In the 1980's Before the Hughes Amendment

[dalbert]

 

Had my trust set up and bought my first subgun the day I turned 21 when I was at the Naval Academy, at the time I took out a loan to do it. Now I'm 26 have owned 6 machine guns and my hk sear is still transferring. I will agree most MG fans are older but there are some young bucks among us

 

 

That's good to hear...I bought my first MG at age 21, also. Now I'm just about to turn 51...

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[RoscoeTurner]

 

Well, Ron

There's not many honest newcomers in this field anymore, but I try to do my best. I understand there's not many 22y/o here on their own accord.

It's not as well funded or opportunistic as many stories here, but I am still here. Broke, young, and inquisitive as ever..

Had my trust set up and bought my first subgun the day I turned 21 when I was at the Naval Academy, at the time I took out a loan to do it. Now I'm 26 have owned 6 machine guns and my hk sear is still transferring. I will agree most MG fans are older but there are some young bucks among us

 

 

Similar experience buying my first machine gun, a MG42 in 1982 or so, when I was in my early twenties. Borrowed the money from the Ft. Rucker Credit Union. $2000 was a lot of money to a 1LT at that time.

[Merry Ploughboy]

On or about August 6, 2007, a BATF spokesman stated at a conference that there were 182,619 transferable machine guns in the BATF registry.

 

In a letter that was sent in response to a FOIA request and dated on or about February 24, 2016, the BATFE indicated that there were 175,977 transferable machine guns in their registry.

 

In any case, two data points do not comprise a trend.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

ETA: The letter of February 24, 2016 includes the disclaimer:

 

"Please note that ATF utilizes customized Standard Query Language (SQL) to collect nformation from system databases. In the instant case, an SQL query may not capture all methods in which the information has been manually entered into system fields. Thus, while each individual record is accurate, there is an inherent albeit unintentional margin of error as to the aggregate statistical information requested."

Edited May 21, 2017 by Merry Ploughboy

[huggytree]

it would have been nicer if it was going the other way though

[timkel]

 

 

Had my trust set up and bought my first subgun the day I turned 21 when I was at the Naval Academy, at the time I took out a loan to do it. Now I'm 26 have owned 6 machine guns and my hk sear is still transferring. I will agree most MG fans are older but there are some young bucks among us

 

That's good to hear...I bought my first MG at age 21, also. Now I'm just about to turn 51...

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

Same here, first MG at 21, then a Thompson at 23.

[Junkhunter]

Yes, registered MGs do get confiscated or destroyed in money making schemes gone bad, or fires, or theft etc. Davey Karmi and his wife Vicky operated an FFL07/SOTII business under her name, Vics Guns, in MO for many years. Davey was a convicted felon and ineligible to possess or even handle firearms under fed law. They bought many transferable MGs, as well as large numbers of post-May samples, often trading MGs for other types of militaria and products. How do I know this? I sold them several MGs and built a quantity of post-May samples bought by them with PD letters. Eventually, local LE lowered the boom on them since LE knew that he was a felon. ATF confiscated, allegedly, 65 transferable MGs, and all other controlled devices.

Then there is the recent Greenberg et al MG serial number swapping enterprise that was unearthed by an ATF/NFA employee who bought a 1919A4, and having access to the NFRTR, looked up the registration/transfer history of the gun he was buying. Serial looked odd so he researched the serial and the maker and discovered that the serial belonged to a MAC smg, not an A4. Greenberg and three others built new MGs and papered them as transferables with MAC smb serial numbers removed from the MACs and welded into the new MGs. I recall that there were about 40 MACs destroyed to use the serial numbers on bogus transferable MGs like Thompsons, A4s, M60s, etc.

Not too long ago I read a statistic from ATF estimating that about 60 MGs a year are "lost", but they didn't break down the status of the MGs that were lost. Were they transferable, pre and post May samples, and lost by civilians, LE of various stripes? Also, was that an average over a number of years?

Measuring the attrition rate of MGs from the NFRTR is very complex and rife with inaccuracy due to the long, long history of the dysfunction of the management NFRTR. Even the reporting by ATF is unreliable and inaccurate, missing relevant information. MGs are reported lost when their whereabouts is unknown from misplacement or theft. Then there are confiscations, accidental destruction, deliberate destruction due to ignorance of legal status, etc, etc. Also, registered MGs can lose their transferable status due incorrect transfers of pre-May samples as transferables, post-May samples transferred as transferables, MG controlled parts manufactured during the waning days before May 19, '86 that ATF claimed were 'illegal' registrations. There are other events that result in a registered MG disappearing.

However, lost and misplaced MGs are often returned to their owners. Some confiscated MGs will be returned to their owners if the confiscation was due to events that required temporary removal from the registrant.

The alleged number of registered transferable MGs reported by ATF over the years has varied dramatically, but has settled down to a range of plus or minus 175,000. The NFRTR is extremely compromised and ATF continues to organize and computerize the contents of the registry, but their procedure leaves many inaccuracies which will have to be sorted out as the years go by. The issues of dead and unknown registrants, MGs in the possession of non-registrant, ATF destroyed records of registered MGs, etc, etc will linger for years.

The figure of 7000 MGs 'disappearing" is just not credible, and if such was the case, the issue would long ago have been revealed by transfer failures, compliance inspections, and other sources involved with the movement of MGs between registrants.

FWIW

I fully believe we're losing 100 transferables a year or more, due to improper transfers after a death,I have ran into a dozen lately. uncle Bob died we found two MP40s and my cousin flipped out and called the police to get them, registered? Maybe. Anyone bother checking? No.I hear these stories every week. There is even horror stories about a local SOTs. One died and his mother turned in his inventory even after she was told she was legal to sell them. I think if they ever start looking at all these hundred year old owners you will see the registry shrink dramatically. Mostly because of families just passing the guns on to friends and family not knowing any better. Edited May 22, 2017 by Junkhunter

[anjong-ni]

Certainly there is a distinction between being "in the registry" and "in circulation".

People like Brian at BRP have been "building" MG's from registered (Swedish?) tubes for 20 years.

He might have thousands of registered tubes yet to build, but makes just enough to satisfy demand.

 

In the future, surely more of the long-ago registered stuff will become available to purchase...and MG's maybe cheaper....

 

....But not Thompsons... Phil

[Black River Militaria CII]

Attrition of unregistered MGs and registered MGs that are not transferred out of an estate, or are in somebody else's possession other than the "registrant", if there is one, have been a problem for almost the entire history of the NFA '34 and registered MGs. I get many calls every year about one MG or several that someone has and questions about what to do with it. This has been going on for many years, and is not uncommon with other dealers and gun enthusiasts. In some case, the person who calls says that they will have to turn in the MG or destroy it but mostly they wanted to find out more about making it legal if possible. One of the blessings of the internet is that people who discover an MG have a tool by means of which they can access a stream of information from informed sources. Many do not have any idea about the registration requirements and thus, no few rod the poise, etc. Others do suspect or know that MGs are "illegal" but know nothing more and do have some anxiety. Many callers are asking on behalf of somebody else, and, in my experience over the years, all are males. The fact that they have called me indicates a much higher degree of either intuitive feeling that there is value or some acquired knowledge that there is more that needs to be known about the weapon they have. And they have the internet!

As a teenager, there were Vets in the neighborhood where I grew up and many had firearms brought back from the war. There were some MGs that no doubt were not registered. No one cared one whit about the legality of the MGs and probably few knew of the NFA '34. No one was hysterical about firearms in those days of the '50s and 60s since the war was still a fairly recent memory and bringback weapons were considered to be "honorable". Firearms 'hysteria' began, in my view, shortly after Kennedy's assignation in fall '63. Later on I remember the growing political movement to 'do something' about imported rifles "like" the one that killed Kennedy. GCA '68, five years later, was the direct result of that event. My acquaintance with the world of legal, registered MGs began in 1968 while still living in CA. There were MGs all over the place, and there was indifference to whether they were registered or not. No one cared really, and MGs still were considered to be junk, not worthy of being COLLECTED. Few authorities were very concerned about unregistered MGs. In CA during the 60s, I knew quite a few owners of MGs and not one of them could verify that the MGs were registered. I recall several instances where an MG was reported to the police in some manner, an officer would show up, take the MG back to the precinct and check it out. I had a welded MP28 that I loaned to a friend, that was reported to the police by a neighbor who saw it on the couch through the walk-by window of my friend's apartment and called the cops. An officer took the gun, checked it out and brought it back some days later and said it was legal and not a problem. Sometimes the MGs were not returned to the person from whom it was taken, and the assumption was that it had not been registered or there was some other problem. Prior to the GCA '68, of course, any MG could be registered free of charge. Not so after GCA '68.

During this same time in CA there were several high-profile cases of large collections of MGs being confiscated with many of the MGs unpapered. These cases were high-profile because of the associated celebrities or other juicy scandals and criminal activity, not because of the MGs. Stories I heard of MGs being found and allegedly confiscated never included any info about whether they were DEWATs or live, registered or not. As the years went by still there was no special attention being paid to MGs by the authorities and stories about confiscations seem to be less frequent. MGs still turned up here and there with no evident registrant, and amongst the growing number of collectors and MG enthusiasts, the transfer status of these MGs became of interest. Back then, it was much easier to call ATF and get an answer about whether an MG was in the registry and often the name of the registrant. Still no especially visible gun "hysteria" although the public was much more anxious about firearms due to the drug trade and various other cultural blooms involving firearms that were reported in the news. Gun control advocacy became popular which kicked the anti-gun faction into a greater froth. The attempt to kill Reagan brought all that to a boil and gun control ramped up. MGs still remained a cult following. MGs continued to turn up with the usual questions about registration and who owned it and what would happen to it. However, a new concern entered the mix. From what I recall, the authorities still seemed mostly indifferent she confronted with an MG and usually took charge of it, maybe checking to see if ti was registered, maybe not. Again, who knows how many of these floater MGs were registered? some efforts are made to find out, but of the MGs that I heard about, most were cut up for parts and some were offered to museums. Every once in a while I would hear about a registrant that had been successfully identified and the mG transferred to a new registrant. Just good luck! As time went by the values of MGs kept going up so there was more interest in trying to preserve them and try to rehabilitate their transfer back into the collector market. Again, it is not possible to know how many of these MGs are registered. In recent years, I have had various means of checking with ATF to determine if an MG is registered. Even if the serial is in the NFRTR, the identity and address of the registrant is the critically difficult information to obtain. Even when that information is found, then finding that person, a relative or someone who has the power-of-attorney to sign for him is too high a hurdle to continue. However, few of the MGs about which I get calls are registered, so they really are not being removed form the NFRTR and are not part of the attrition of collectible MGs. The parts are very valuable and useful, a serious benefit to those with the MGs who are disappointed that the guns are not registered and so very valuable. ATF's general position from my interactions with them is that they want the floater MGs to be 'under control" meaning that they must be destroyed, given to a museum or returned to the commercial stream and they are willing to help when presented with verifiable evidence of registration and someone who can be considered eligible to sing a transfer application.

Any estimate of the number MGs that are destroyed or turned over to the police or ATF must be considered in the light of whether they are registered or not. Unregistered MGs being destroyed are not reducing the number of MGs eligible for private possession.

Sorry for the longwinded post, but this is an area of extreme interest to me. I have put many, many hours into trying to help people who have called me with MGs that they have acquired or know about and about which they want help. I hate the idea that registered MGs are tied up by ATF's lack of interest in providing a legal mechanism to provide information and move MGs into the stream of commerce that are in limbo due to deceased or missing registrants. Compounding the difficulties is the issue that floating MGs are property and often, despite that the MG is registered and the registrant is known, the MG gets tied up in probate and inheritance problems. There's no end to t…….

[The Lone Ranger]

No one has mastery of the numbers of anything. If it comes from ATF, you can reasonably consider it a better guess than anyone with no access can muster, but not completely reliable. The only way to really get the number would be a manual check of each record and match that record to the firearm it represents - not logistically practical. There has to be MGs registered to dead people as death is a process of life. ATF has no way to cross reference death records daily with the registry, nor any way to compel an executor/personal rep to transfer a firearm after death. I witnessed an ATF agent pleading with the child of a deceased registrant to transfer Dad's 1928A1 to avoid melting it. It wasn't until he played the $ card and told her how much they sold for that it became a priority. People lose them after "customizing" the markings (worst I have seen on that was a pre-86 HK33 - about a 5-6k item @ the time), or getting bored and morphing them. Aside from the case Mr. Naess mentioned, have seen an AR sear turn into a converted AK, a MG-08 become a MG-34, a Norell STEN evolve into a C&R PPSH.....

 

Small point of correction on the Clark case - the story about an ATF employee buying a MG and researching it is often repeated but fabricated. Reality is that a dealer posted a classified ad on a web page for a 1919A4 and mentioned in the text it was registered as a M-10. While the ad was later altered, it was there long enough for an employee @ NFA who knew the difference between the two to see what had occurred and so it began. Lots of bluster about that case but turned out it was just some guys selling unregistered guns to people who didn't know better. 121 months was the longest sentence

[Junkhunter]

I spent years saving two MGs. Yes one was a Thompson the family thought was a movie prop and did not know it was registered. The other family thought was registered but not 100% sure, and one of the lawful inheritors was a nun in a rural Mexican convent. Any transfer time under 3 years is a bonus for me.

 

However there are plenty of floaters out there that once were registered, Now too far from home to go back.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Junkhunter

[Black River Militaria CII]

RE: Clark prosecution: ironically it was that very dealer, who shall be nameless, who told me the story about the ATF/NFA person buying the A4 and researching the NFRTR to discover the serial swap. This was during the time after that bit of MG sleight-of-hand had been discovered. I knew at the time I talked to him that gun had been on his books, but he did not reveal that either.

Thanks for pointing that out!

[Black River Militaria CII]

>However there are plenty of floaters out there that once were registered, Now too far from home to go back.<

 

Sadly yes, but I suspect you meant to say "that are registered" rather than "once were registered". If registered at one time, these MGs are still registered, assuming their registration was not one of the card registrations, many of which were were lost or destroyed long ago, during the filing card years or lost due to some other cause. Ostensibly, once a registration is entered into the NFRTR, it is never removed, but like all else with ATF that is open to question, but with luck applies to the computer archived NFRTR.......

[TD.]

Black River Militaria CII,

Very interesting posts. Thank you. Can you (or anyone) explain the "card registrations" and "filing card years?"

[The Lone Ranger]

RE: Clark prosecution: ironically it was that very dealer, who shall be nameless, who told me the story about the ATF/NFA person buying the A4 and researching the NFRTR to discover the serial swap. This was during the time after that bit of MG sleight-of-hand had been discovered. I knew at the time I talked to him that gun had been on his books, but he did not reveal that either.

Thanks for pointing that out!

 

Understandable how one might not want to be known as the typist that launched a hundred seizures. Like any counterfeit articles - the volume had gotten so big the cat was getting out of the bag sooner or later and someone was going to get left holding the bag with the counterfeits, but it might not be good for business with the consumer world knowing who pushed the snowball over the ledge and got it rolling.

 

 

TD: Generically, cards are a tale of technology and practicality. Since there is not a great deal of space/info associated with a quick reference "registry" cards fit the bill much better than a file folder per item in terms of searching time and space required. When computers became practical, they took over the job much like digital imaging replaced microfilm. Could not tell you what year(s) the changes/upgrades occurred.

Edited May 23, 2017 by The Lone Ranger

[Junkhunter]

>However there are plenty of floaters out there that once were registered, Now too far from home to go back.<

Sadly yes, but I suspect you meant to say "that are registered" rather than "once were registered". If registered at one time, these MGs are still registered, assuming their registration was not one of the card registrations, many of which were were lost or destroyed long ago, during the filing card years or lost due to some other cause. Ostensibly, once a registration is entered into the NFRTR, it is never removed, but like all else with ATF that is open to question, but with luck applies to the computer archived NFRTR.......

 

That's exactly what I meant..... no more sleepy posting for me. But yes once someone passes away, their Dewat is grabbed by a offspring who doesn't know better, he gives it to his cousin who is really into guns and eventually is sold to a guy the cousin works with. Finally he shows it to someone that actually knows NFA. So registered yes but I assume it can never be transferred properly again. Not without a small miracle of tracking down the estate and following estate procedure correct?

[The Lone Ranger]

Barring noted miracle, it's done in that scenario which unfortunately happens.

[huggytree]

Ill share some info i learned about my Thompson...im still in the middle of a history on it, but im down to just filling in a few blanks....anyways my Thompson was handed over to a bank as collateral for a $2k bank loan in the mid 80's(no ATF transfer to the bank)....The owner couldnt pay the loan back...bank held the Thompson until 1990 in its bank vault. The VP of the bank put it in his trunk, drove to a gun show and asked the guy running the gun show to introduce him to a gun dealer ...dealer went out into the parking lot and the bank VP opened up his trunk----THOMPSON wrapped in a blanket.... they managed to get the ATF to let him transfer it to the dealer.......so guaranteed these things happen!!!....in this case my Thompson was saved....but maybe in 2017 the same story would have a different ending....Machine guns are lost every year to odd situations!!!

Edited May 25, 2017 by huggytree

[CptCurl]

Probably a dumb question: Will the ATF confirm whether a particular MG is registered, and to whom?

 

For instance, should a prospective buyer make independent inquiry as part of his due diligence?

 

I can imagine that not all of the counterfeit MGs created by the serial number transfer scam were caught in the net when the fraud was discovered. If some of the "cats" got out of the bag, how do I know if the "cat" I'm considering is legit?

 

I'm a lawyer, so I think of an analogous real estate transfer. The seller has a deed to the property, but due diligence requires a purchaser to have the title searched for determination whether the seller really has title and whether there are liens, encumbrances, or other defects.

 

Thanks all!

 

Curl

[Black River Militaria CII]

When NFA '34 was enacted it included a charge for the transfer of registration of an MG to an individual or plus a couple other types of procedures which was $200. This was a pre-emptive monetary hurdle to make acquisition of NFA expensive so few could afford it. It was called a "tax" and not a fee, probably because the treasury department was tasked with the administration of the registration scheme. Because it was a tax and not a fee, it rendered the registration document "confidential" since it was a tax document. So, as a tax document, the information is confidential and the Feds cannot divulge it except to the current registrant of record or an eligible official. So, a buyer has two options which is to ask the current registrant to write a letter to ATF asking for specific information about the specific serial number in the NFRTR or file a Freedom of Information Act request with ATF for info on the gun, both of which will take many, many months to process. On occasion ATF will discuss with the registrant questions about his MG by phone but that is now very rare. In other circumstances, aside from just an individual wanting info, there are avenues to finding out archived info on an MG from ATF.

If the $200 "tax" had been called a "fee" as it actually is, and should have been called, NFA archive info would be available.

Verificatioin of the authenticity of an MG and its registrant can be effectively be accomplished without access to the NFRTR, the ATF archive. While there are many errors in the original registrations on record and on transfer applications, which ATF is currently attempting to rectify, a buyer with a copy of the registration paperwork is the place to start to help shed light on the nature of the MG. Identity of listed manufacturer or importer can be researched for authenticity and info about the source of the gun. Physical ID noted on the form for the gun can be verified by comparison to pictures of the gun. Evidence of alteration, reactivation, restoration, repair and all sorts of other issues can be identified and researched by showing pictures on this site for discussion. Sometimes a specific MG will be known to others who have been in the hobby for many years who can provide insight. In 2017, compared to 1965, finding out information on a registered NFA weapon is a picnic with the Internet, publications of many new books, ongoing and intensive research of all aspects of MG history by all sorts of people, millions of "man-hours" of hands-on experience with MG s available in the MG community and industry, etc, etc. Who could ask for more?

The copies of all previous transfers and other documents that are received from an FOIA request have lots of valuable information for those interested in that source of history of an MG. The NFA process was designed to be burdensome and obstructionist and it continues successfully in that. FWIW

Edited May 25, 2017 by Black River Militaria CII