C&R License

[wcwarren]

Can you purchase a machine gun and have it shipped directly to you if you have a ATF C&R Licenses and the gun qualities as a C&R firearm ?  I collect military firearms with a special interest in WW2 weapons.   I already have 2 machine guns in my collection.  A M-1 Thompson and a M-50 Reising.  

William 

[Rekraps]

Perhaps only if in the same state as the seller. Otherwise, you must use a FFL/SOT to transfer NFA between states.

[tommyboy]

If you hold a C&R license and the gun qualifies as C&R, then yes you can have it transferred directly to you on a form 4 from the seller. It doesn’t matter if the seller is in the same state as you or not.

[Rekraps]

Really! I had always thought inter-state transfers required FFL/SOT. Thanks.

[ppgcowboy]

Does not matter the State. You still have to do the forms4 and wait what seems like forever for approval of the transfer. When approved, it can then be transferred dirctly to you. Many do a form3 so the machinegun is where you can actually see, feel, and in some cases take it for a ride on occasions. Plus if in the possession of the seller, he can ride it hard while waiting on the transfer. It has happened.

[wcwarren]

So, you not allow to transfer with a form 3 dealer to dealer if you have your C&R ?

[ppgcowboy]

In the end you will be getting it on a form 4. A form 3 is a dealer to dealer transfer. Do not confusenyour ffl 03 as being a dealer. An ffl 03 is a collector not a dealer. If you use it to deal in c&r weapons you will run into problems. That is my understanding.

[Rekraps]

When I buy I always have the gun transferred to a local dealer so I can see and touch it and know where it is whilst I wait an eternity for the Form 4 approval.

[wcwarren]

Gotcha.  Thanks for the information 

Edited December 14, 2022 by wcwarren

[tommyboy]

39 minutes ago, Rekraps said:

When I buy I always have the gun transferred to a local dealer so I can see and touch it and know where it is whilst I wait an eternity for the Form 4 approval.

That works great when purchasing a gun that will transfer out from a dealer tax free on a form 3. If it’s an individual your purchasing from and you want to transfer it to a dealer in your state, the seller would need to file a form 4 along with the $200 tax to your dealer and then once approved, your dealer can form 4 it to you. In that situation you have two taxes paid ($400) and two separate transfers which could easily be 8 or more months each. Just something to be aware of…

[RoscoeTurner]

23 hours ago, wcwarren said:

Can you purchase a machine gun and have it shipped directly to you if you have a ATF C&R Licenses and the gun qualities as a C&R firearm ?  I collect military firearms with a special interest in WW2 weapons.   I already have 2 machine guns in my collection.  A M-1 Thompson and a M-50 Reising.  

William 

A C&R licensee can receive a C&R NFA item from out of state.  

[HHollow]

I have had one shipped directly to me from out-of-state dealer and UPS just left it on my stoop.  On another purchase I transfered to a local dealer.  The transfer to him was quick (5 weeks) as compared to waiting for a year for a direct transfer.   I did this and spent an extra $200 to lower risk of drama because the seller was elderly.

Think about the problems resulting from a death, divorce, or dementia type disaster while waiting for a transfer from an out-of-state (far away) private party.

Edited December 16, 2022 by HHollow

[skoda]

I have bought several out of state and had them shipped to me directly but they were all C&Rs. I bought one C&R and had it shipped to my dealer because the seller situation was one where I wanted it in hands that I could trust. 

One way to keep a seller from using your gun while you wait for a transfer is to have them take it apart and ship everything but the receiver and whatever is more or less permanently attached to it. Of course if they have another such gun or parts set they can still shoot it but for the most part it keeps them honest.

[Rekraps]

So it seems to be a consensus, and a good practice in general, considering all SCAMS out there, to either have the gun Form 3'd from a dealer to your local FFL, or have the seller Form 4 it to your local dealer. The latter allows your local FFL to have a second set of eyes on the transaction. 

[BPinFL]

Of course, if you are transferring it from a reputable, well known seller such as, Morphys, Poulin, Rubin M., etc, I would go with the direct transfer, and not have aC3 slow the process down! But that's just me, Do whatever you think is better, and safer!  Thanks for this board and all the sharing of opinions and thoughts. BP OUT. 

[brveagle]

The next obvious question would be, does having a c&r license and using that for your out of state form 4 MG transfer, speed up the process any? In theory you're already "licensed" right?

[First Sergeant]

Doesn't speed the process any but averts two transfers ( and associated time for those) whether it be a form 3 or 4.

[ppgcowboy]

By having  a c&r license, you do not have to fill out a form 5320.20 to travel with a c&r machinegun.  I just sent out my renewal today.

[ranger1385]

Just finished a C&R to C&R transfer.  Out of state, 9 months paper.  It was rejected also.   

[Rekraps]

On 1/18/2023 at 12:17 AM, ppgcowboy said:

By having  a c&r license, you do not have to fill out a form 5320.20 to travel with a c&r machinegun.  I just sent out my renewal today.

Are you sure?

[BRMCII]

Yes, FFL03 C+R collector license permits the licensee interstate travel with the C+R NFA without a 5320 notification.
The paranoia about a seller shooting and damaging the gun after it is sold while awaiting the F4 transfer from him to you on your C+R license is irrational. Not worth worrying about given the extremely remote likelihood. If you are so worried about fraud by a private seller check him out by asking for references, request contact info from him for his place of employment, etc, etc. You can work up a contract and request detailed pictures of the firearm prior to sending money. Require the purchase by a 50% down and 50% on approved transfer deal to provide some protection from fraud by a non-licensee seller. Take a trip to inspect the firearm and put 50% down and take everything but the receiver with you. Visit the seller with a strong box big enough for the MG receiver, take the parts, pay the down, put the gun in the box, take the key and when transfer is approved, go get the gun, pay the balance and take it with you. Condition the sale on the seller having his lawyer hold your certified check down payment until the transfer is approved and go get the gun, pay the balance to release the check and take the gun. There are wide variety of methods to interfere with potential fraud while a transfer is pending but few sellers will put up with most of them. If you are so concerned about fraud by a seller where simple precautions don't appear to be enough, then don't buy the gun. FWIW
 

 

[tommyboy]

From the ATF website. Section C is what’s relevant to C&R holders.

https://regulations.atf.gov/478-28/2022-17741#478-28-a-5

 

c.This section shall not be construed as requiring licensees to obtain authorization to transport destructive devices, machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, and short-barreled rifles in interstate or foreign commerce: Provided, That in the case of a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, such a licensee is qualified under the National Firearms Act (see also Part 479 of this chapter) and this part to engage in the business with respect to the device or weapon to be transported, and that in the case of a licensed collector, the device or weapon to be transported is a curio or relic.

[RoscoeTurner]

2 hours ago, Rekraps said:

Are you sure?

Absolutely!

[ranger1385]

I have a question:  If a weapon is "maybe" a rewatt.  How would you know on the forms?  Or would you?  

[Rekraps]

3 minutes ago, ranger1385 said:

I have a question:  If a weapon is "maybe" a rewatt.  How would you know on the forms?  Or would you?  

You would not. Even with careful examination of the gun, you may never know. Some were just sloppy welds of the barrel... some were full rebuilds. Ask questions and pay attention. Just because its a Rewatt does not mean it is of lesser value...