Police vs FBI case balance - Old Wives Tale?

[Sig]

Responding to another thread regarding FBI case dimensions, rpbcps posted a link to Ian McCollum's excellent video on Police, FBI and Secret Services cases.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/thompson-smg-cases-police-fbi-and-secret-service/

I am not trying to quote Ian directly below just bringing out his points.

At 3:20 Ian comments, that the Police case, this layout works pretty well, with the XX mags loaded on the left and the loaded drum on the right.  Ian saying that the Police case will balance pretty well.

At 4:20 Ian comments, that the FBI loaded up will balance way towards this side, (left side)

I kept looking at the video and wondering with the mass of the Thompson receiver mostly on the right, was Ian's statements, which was also my own understanding, correct?

So, what's a retired person to do, maybe a little bit of home experimentation.  I have a wood hard case that can be configured to either Police or FBI.  I was suspicious that perhaps loaded cases may not truly balance that much differently.  For pilots like myself, there are many Old Wives Tales, that just are not true, I was wondering if we have one here.  Thus, I decided to load up some mags and a drum and take a look.  First off this is not a scientific experiment, Your Mileage May Vary YMMV and most likely will.  

I will state some ROUGH results without any reference to the actual weights but %'s loaded.  Mind you that my case is wood and the dimensions are not exactly Police or FBI, it is a bit wider and because of that some differences could be there just because where the receiver is placed, I placed it on the far right side.

Police Case loaded Left side 47% Right side 53%

FBI Case Loaded Left Side 53%; Right side 47%

As you can see, there is not much difference in balance with a loaded case, just to one side or the other.

So, do we have an Old Wives Tale of the Thompson world, in that Police Cases balance better?

The only true way to compare would be to weigh actual Police and FBI cases loaded and with some better methodology than I did, which I will not get into here.

So, enjoy and perhaps we can have a true scientific repeatable measurement one day.

 

[Chromebolt]

 

That's a good looking case an interesting information.

[Mike Hammer]

2 hours ago, Sig said:

Responding to another thread regarding FBI case dimensions, rpbcps posted a link to Ian McCollum's excellent video on Police, FBI and Secret Services cases.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/thompson-smg-cases-police-fbi-and-secret-service/

I am not trying to quote Ian directly below just bringing out his points.

At 3:20 Ian comments, that the Police case, this layout works pretty well, with the XX mags loaded on the left and the loaded drum on the right.  Ian saying that the Police case will balance pretty well.

At 4:20 Ian comments, that the FBI loaded up will balance way towards this side, (left side)

I kept looking at the video and wondering with the mass of the Thompson receiver mostly on the right, was Ian's statements, which was also my own understanding, correct?

So, what's a retired person to do, maybe a little bit of home experimentation.  I have a wood hard case that can be configured to either Police or FBI.  I was suspicious that perhaps loaded cases may not truly balance that much differently.  For pilots like myself, there are many Old Wives Tales, that just are not true, I was wondering if we have one here.  Thus, I decided to load up some mags and a drum and take a look.  First off the is not a scientific experiment, Your Mileage May Vary YMMV and most likely will.  

I will state some ROUGH results without any reference to the actual weights but %'s loaded.  Mind you that my case is wood and the dimensions are not exactly Police or FBI, it is a bit wider and because of that some differences could be there just because where the receiver is placed, I placed it on the far right side.

Police Case loaded Left side 47% Right side 53%

FBI Case Loaded Left Side 53%; Right side 47%

As you can see, there is not much difference in balance with a loaded case, just to one side or the other.

So, do we have an Old Wives Tale of the Thompson world, in that Police Cases balance better?

The only true way to compare would be to weigh actual Police and FBI cases loaded and with some better methodology than I did, which I will not get into here.

So, enjoy and perhaps we can have a true scientific repeatable measurement one day.

 

Ahh Grasshopper, but what if both the drum and stick mags were loaded, as I take mine to.the range that way

[Motorcar]

1 minute ago, Mike Hammer said:

Ahh Grasshopper, but what if both the drum and stick mags were loaded, as I take mine to.the range that way

Yes! You must carry to full ammo load to know if the balance changes with the weight of the receiver vs ammo....

[rpbcps]

9 minutes ago, Mike Hammer said:

Ahh Grasshopper, but what if both the drum and stick mags were loaded, as I take mine to.the range that way

Ah yes, when I have read reference to the Police case being more balanced than the FBI version, it usual stipulates, loaded magazines.

Nice case Michael, love the fact you can change the internal fittings.

Maybe this year's TATA show & shoot will be the opportunity to carry out the scientific repeatable measurement?

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by rpbcps
Typo... again

[Sig]

3 hours ago, Sig said:

Responding to another thread regarding FBI case dimensions, rpbcps posted a link to Ian McCollum's excellent video on Police, FBI and Secret Services cases.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/thompson-smg-cases-police-fbi-and-secret-service/

I am not trying to quote Ian directly below just bringing out his points.

At 3:20 Ian comments, that the Police case, this layout works pretty well, with the XX mags loaded on the left and the loaded drum on the right.  Ian saying that the Police case will balance pretty well.

At 4:20 Ian comments, that the FBI loaded up will balance way towards this side, (left side)

I kept looking at the video and wondering with the mass of the Thompson receiver mostly on the right, was Ian's statements, which was also my own understanding, correct?

So, what's a retired person to do, maybe a little bit of home experimentation.  I have a wood hard case that can be configured to either Police or FBI.  I was suspicious that perhaps loaded cases may not truly balance that much differently.  For pilots like myself, there are many Old Wives Tales, that just are not true, I was wondering if we have one here.  Thus, I decided to load up some mags and a drum and take a look.  First off the is not a scientific experiment, Your Mileage May Vary YMMV and most likely will.  

I will state some ROUGH results without any reference to the actual weights but %'s loaded.  Mind you that my case is wood and the dimensions are not exactly Police or FBI, it is a bit wider and because of that some differences could be there just because where the receiver is placed, I placed it on the far right side.

Police Case loaded Left side 47% Right side 53%

FBI Case Loaded Left Side 53%; Right side 47%

As you can see, there is not much difference in balance with a loaded case, just to one side or the other.

So, do we have an Old Wives Tale of the Thompson world, in that Police Cases balance better?

The only true way to compare would be to weigh actual Police and FBI cases loaded and with some better methodology than I did, which I will not get into here.

So, enjoy and perhaps we can have a true scientific repeatable measurement one day.

 

If it was not clear

I loaded all mags and the drum with 230 grain ball.  I took the pics prior to loading.  I bolded that sentence in the first post, as an edit. 

[rpbcps]

36 minutes ago, Sig said:

If it was not clear

i loaded all mags and the drum with 230 grain ball.  I took the pics prior to loading.  I bolded that sentence in the first post, as an edit. 

Michael my bad, I misread that sentence as loading the magazines into your case... as I said, maybe this year's TATA show & shoot will be the opportunity to carry out the scientific repeatable measurement? 😉

[Sig]

3 minutes ago, rpbcps said:

Michael my bad, I misread that sentence as loading the magazines into your case... as I said, maybe this year's TATA show & shoot will be the opportunity to carry out the scientific repeatable measurement? 😉

Yup, I could see how that can be misinterpreted, hence the additional clarification.  English might be my first and only language but writing, well maybe not the best!

[rpbcps]

🤫

[rpbcps]

Just a thought, if the balance difference between the loaded Police and FBI cases is negligible, I wonder why  the FBI used a different  layout for the magazines in their case design, and did not just keep the original design.

Any ideas out there?

[Sig]

2 hours ago, rpbcps said:

Just a thought, if the balance difference between the loaded Police and FBI cases is negligible, I wonder why  the FBI used a different  layout for the magazines in their case design, and did not just keep the original design.

Any ideas out there?

As far as I know, the FBI case was first.  No idea why or what prompted the different interior designs. 

My simple trial showed it does not appear to be much weight balance benefit, and I made it clear I have an imperfect test sample case. 
What is more notable to me is that the Police cases have Side Bolts or Latches for additional security.  

[rpbcps]

Strange, I have always been led to believe that the Police cases were manufactured first, from what I have read, and the FBI cases only much later, May 1935. Attached is one doument, which I believed was pertaining to the first order for the FBI cases for the bureau, dated 29th May 1935. 

 

Michael, I know your Colt Thompson knowledge is much better than mine, especially when it comes to Colt Thompson paperwork from that era, have I been hood winked once again?

Edited August 2, 2023 by rpbcps

[Sig]

Richard

Just checked Tracie's TUTB Chapter 41, unless I missed it, which is possible, I found no reference that the Police case were first.  As I said, my assumption is that the Police cases came later, I have zero evidence of that.

E.E. Richardson designed his own case, the "Indiana" case discussed on page 202 of TUTB, no date mentioned in the book but I am sure that it could be dated, certainly prior to 1935.  E.E. Richardson was active beginning in 1928, so no earlier than that.  

I would be more curious to look into a Federal Labs catalog prior to 1935, I don't have one handy, maybe this weekend.  Federal Labs took over sales for Auto Ordnance, if there were Police Cases available it would be my assumption Federal Labs would market these to the same agencies that they were selling the Thompsons to.

[Merry Ploughboy]

For completeness and to provide what might be worst case (no pun intended) scenario, the carry cases compared should also have long cleaning rods and fully loaded spare parts boxes included within.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

[Sig]

1 hour ago, Merry Ploughboy said:

For completeness and to provide what might be worst case (no pun intended) scenario, the carry cases compared should also have long cleaning rods and fully loaded spare parts boxes included within.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

Great points there MP

I would have done a full test but I only have a wood case shown and an Original Police case.  My intention was to just see if it was that much, if at all.  Really need both an original Police and FBI case, along with the Thompson and accessories full loaded.  I suspect the Police case will balance to one side and the FBI to the other side and if weighed it won't be a lot of difference in the proportion from one side to the other.

[Colt Chopper]

Most original case handles are not in the best condition, I would never trust that much weight on an old valuable item.

I don't trust them even when the case is empty.

Just sayin

[Sig]

40 minutes ago, Colt Chopper said:

Most original case handles are not in the best condition, I would never trust that much weight on an old valuable item.

I don't trust them even when the case is empty.

Just sayin

Yup, I would only suggest weighing with a scale to weigh each end someway, not by the handle, without getting into all details, that is how I went about it to come up with the %'s in the first post.

[rpbcps]

6 hours ago, Sig said:

Richard

Just checked Tracie's TUTB Chapter 41, unless I missed it, which is possible, I found no reference that the Police case were first.  As I said, my assumption is that the Police cases came later, I have zero evidence of that.

E.E. Richardson designed his own case, the "Indiana" case discussed on page 202 of TUTB, no date mentioned in the book but I am sure that it could be dated, certainly prior to 1935.  E.E. Richardson was active beginning in 1928, so no earlier than that.  

I would be more curious to look into a Federal Labs catalog prior to 1935, I don't have one handy, maybe this weekend.  Federal Labs took over sales for Auto Ordnance, if there were Police Cases available it would be my assumption Federal Labs would market these to the same agencies that they were selling the Thompsons to.

Michael,

Thanks for reply, not sure were I read that the Police style cases came first, but I did read it somewhere maybe on this forum.

Be interested to hear what you discover, if anything from your Federal Labs catalogs.

Like the FBI, perhaps some individual police departments sourced contracts direct with case manufacturers, not via AO or Fed Labs? For example, I read the the Chicago PD cases, had no location for Drums, but more space for XX mags, 7 if I recall correctly?

Edited August 2, 2023 by rpbcps
Added paragraph

[Sig]

31 minutes ago, rpbcps said:

Michael,

Thanks for reply, not sure were I read that the Police style cases came first, but I did read it somewhere maybe on this forum.

Be interested to hear what you discover, if anything from your Federal Labs catalogs.

First look at Fed Labs material shows only their, my word "Super Heavy Duty" fully armored case holding in addition to the Thompson, a Riot Gun, Projectiles both Short & Long Range, Grenades, Billies and Billy Shells.  I would not want to try and lug that thing around, much less drop it, that could be bad!

I doubt anyone will find in a Fed Labs catalog a Police Style case.

The purpose of my 1st post here, is to get the conversation going, wondering if we have an "Old Wives Tale" regarding the Police case being better balanced compared to the FBI case, as shared in Ian McCollum's video.  As my first post stated;

"The only true way to compare would be to weigh actual Police and FBI cases loaded and with some better methodology than I did, which I will not get into here.

So, enjoy and perhaps we can have a true scientific repeatable measurement one day."

I am in no way shape or form, claiming my rough test was definitive.

[Gio]

I know the answer. 
Trump came up with the police case. 
When the woke FBI took over they had to change it. 
That’s my story and I’m sticking with it 

 

Frank

[rpbcps]

See page 2 of this old topic,post by Johndee007.

https://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?/topic/11956-the-thompson-hardcase/page/2/

Quote "Here are two pictures taken and posted in the newspaper of East Chicago Chief of Police Nicholas Marker, holding the opened hard case. In the case is the buttstock and looks like two twenty round magazines and boxes of ammunition from the First National Bank in East Chicago on January 15, 1934 that was left behind by Dillinger and Hamilton". unquote

The picture in the post looks like a police / FBI style case? The photo dates this case, to over a year prior to the FBI sourcing their cases, with their specific dimensions and layout.

Food for thought?

MIchael, to quote you "The purpose of my 1st post here, is to get the conversation going, wondering if we have an "Old Wives Tale" regarding the Police case being better balanced compared to the FBI case, as shared in Ian McCollum's video". These posts/ duscussions often spread to related issues, as which came first, the Police or FBI style is an example, sorry.

Edited August 2, 2023 by rpbcps
typo

[Sig]

22 minutes ago, rpbcps said:

See page 2 of this old topic,post by Johndee007.

https://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?/topic/11956-the-thompson-hardcase/page/2/

Quote "Here are two pictures taken and posted in the newspaper of East Chicago Chief of Police Nicholas Marker, holding the opened hard case. In the case is the buttstock and looks like two twenty round magazines and boxes of ammunition from the First National Bank in East Chicago on January 15, 1934 that was left behind by Dillinger and Hamilton". unquote

The picture in the post looks like a police / FBI style case? The photo dates this case, to over a year prior to the FBI sourcing their cases, with their specific dimensions and layout.

I am bowing out on any further discussion on which came first. 

[rpbcps]

Michael,

My apologise for hijacking your excellent post on the balance question. I'll humbly bow out myself, I had no intention of upsetting the applecart.

[StrangeRanger]

It might be interesting to repeat the experiment with a 21A vs. a 21AC.  The comp doesn't weigh much but it is all the way at the left end so it adds or detracts significantly to the left/right balance of the loaded case

[Bridgeport28A1]

Don't forget to fill the nickel oiler in the butt stock with oil.