StrangeRanger Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 This Schnellfeuer is a little strange. It appears to be import marked but also re-serialized by LaFrance. Picture #2 shows the S/N as 82068 but the S/N on the receiver which is only partially visible in Pictures #15 and #16 clearly ends in 7. Anyone know what's going on? https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1043274683 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 Doesn't list it as a C&R so maybe it's not just imported by LaFrance but remanufactured by LaFrance in the early 80's and they applied a new serial number, Wonder if Lafrance is listed as the Mfg on the paperwork or Mauser? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted March 26 Author Report Share Posted March 26 That seems likely but wouldn't have they obliterated the S/N on the receiver? At this point what is the serialized part, the upper or the lower? Confusing to say the least. It would be interesting to see the F4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inertord Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 The serial numbers on the upper mean nothing for NFA Purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rekraps Posted March 26 Report Share Posted March 26 All I can say is that the gun is clearly either brand new, or refinished as it shows almost no wear in the usual places that a gun of this type (and holster) would display. Barrel looks positively perfect! The GB description is lacking to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted March 26 Author Report Share Posted March 26 That seller is well known for leaving critical information out of his descriptions and/or misrepresenting things. He covers his posterior by saying look at the pictures, WYSIWYG. Read his negative feedback. I'm not sure I'd buy a cap pistol from him but he does have some interesting stuff for sale at not so interesting prices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 Manufactured by Lafrance sometime between 68 and 86. Probably not 50 years old, so not C+R yet. As to what it was before Tim got his hands on it is anyone's guess, but it was a broomhandle at the least. The stuff he did when he was doing it was visionary. Yes the gun has a fairly new finish relative to a 1930's finish. Quite likely the seller has no idea of what he has when you get down to details. He's also not particularly price savvy in this case, but as they say.... "if you cast a big enough net". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted March 27 Author Report Share Posted March 27 It may or may not have been an original Schnellfeuer that he rewatted/restored but he wouldn't have needed to reserialize it in that case. Based on barrel langth and shape, Mauserwerke markings and the sight, the upper appears to be from an M30. The bolt looks like new manufacture. The lower???? I'd hate to guess. The markings are consistent with an M30 but a whole lot of welding would have been required to slab side all the beautifully machined panels. I could be tempted but not at $30K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 The serial number falls well within the range for those guns. The upper is also correct for that gun. The bolt is original, but like the gun, has been refurbished. The lower was likely cut and Lafrance welded/ re-manufactured, and refinished it, applying the original serial number and his info. Not really all that much work or anything having to do with reconfiguration of the slab side. Nothing really unusual at all about this gun and how it came to be. The sellers description might be all he knows about the gun? Lots of GB stuff is consignment these days. It's on par with Reuben's descriptions and pricing....LOL. Sometimes you only write what you know about the gun and let the pictures do the talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRMCII Posted March 28 Report Share Posted March 28 Serial on these guns is on the top rear of the upper just below the rear sight. I have encountered several that also were serialized on action frames and some internals. Inter-American Arms imported a lot of these post-'68 GCA as pre-May sample. Pics include one of the side of magwell showing typical very, very smooth metal surface and bluing just to compare the gun offered with an original example. The offered gun might very well be a pre-May import that has passed as fully transferable. I had one years ago that was transferred to me on an F4 from a dealer. The gun offered has coarse flat grinding marks on the magwell but no evidence of welding which would be mighty difficult to hide on such an gun, especially finished surfaced with nitrate salt blue-black which that appears to be. I've done a great deal of welding of many various receivers and it is very difficult to perfectly match the steel alloys with welding rod, although some rods come very close, and on many early MGs the seam will show up by polishing and bluing. Much less so with parkerizing. A prospective buyer would be wise to ask for pics of the inside of the magwell which would definitely show welding and finishing scars. IMO, another possibility is that the gun offered is marked as a reman, remanufactured from a single cut receiver during the early years when only one cut of the receiver was required, and I doubt this one was welded, but was just registered and checked as a reman on an F2. There are quite a few transferable MGs in the NFRTR done that way, and there has been for a long time, a small collector fraternity that collect such remans that were never cut but were merely marked and registered on F2s. They are always much less expensive. 712s are very tricky receivers to weld and in the seventies and later, they had insufficient commercial value to put the intense labor required for welding them up. Just a possibility. An FOIA would be very useful for this gun for date and form of registration. Just my opinion from experience FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yohuang Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 This gunbroker item was rebuilt by a US workshop in San Diego. Two pieces of the grip frame were welded back. Frame panels re-milled to hide the welding, then poorly reblued. Non C&R Schnellfeuer in this condition ... A few thousand dollars if it shoots OK. $30,000? that's for an original C&R Schnellfeuer in mint condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yohuang Posted April 4 Report Share Posted April 4 If you have interest in this type, the following gunbroker one is in original condition. The seller didn't reveal its ATF registration status though, it is probably a dealer sample. I doubt he dares to list unregistered machine pistol publicly. Consult the seller if have interest: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1044604927 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted April 5 Author Report Share Posted April 5 Really badly worded ad. It's posted as a semi but somewhat awkwardly described as a full auto. No mention if it's a sample or transferable. No indication if it's on a Form 3 or a Form 4. No magazine(s) shown in any of the pictures, no indication if any is/are included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villafuego Posted April 5 Report Share Posted April 5 (edited) Take a look at the pics of the lock frame in the auction ...... it appears that the top has been cut off the release lever, and the parts welded in the semi auto setting. Wouldn't touch that one with a 10 foot pole https://assets.gunbroker.com/pics/1044604000/1044604927/pix034823369.jpg Edited April 5 by villafuego Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted April 5 Author Report Share Posted April 5 Wasn't going to bid on it anyway, the listing seemed too sketchy. Didn't really study the pix as a result but thanks for the heads up. Given that once a machine gun always a machine gun is the rule that thing is a felony waiting for a place to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yohuang Posted April 5 Report Share Posted April 5 (edited) I agree, the damned thing was partially deactivated to shoot semi only. But it is still on the edge of being illegal. It probably missed 1968 Amnesty. Supposedly, this grip frame should be destroyed. Just fix the switch position is probably not enough. Will ATF accept this minor modification on the frame/switch? No wonder the seller does not mention its registration. It is a grey gun, not registered at all. Edited April 5 by yohuang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted April 5 Author Report Share Posted April 5 It's the same as permanently removing/disabling the selector mechanism on any other full-auto, it's still a machine gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timkel Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 On 4/4/2024 at 5:56 PM, yohuang said: If you have interest in this type, the following gunbroker one is in original condition. The seller didn't reveal its ATF registration status though, it is probably a dealer sample. I doubt he dares to list unregistered machine pistol publicly. Consult the seller if have interest: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1044604927 The description was just updated with: CORRECTION:I can not sell this right now cause it was not properly listed with the ATF NFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted April 10 Author Report Share Posted April 10 I was watching it just to see what would happen so I just got the notice from GB in my email. What an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted April 10 Report Share Posted April 10 A number of days ago I asked the seller all the questions that we were asking, never got a reply back. Yeah, this seller doesn't have a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted April 10 Author Report Share Posted April 10 I had messaged him too, also got crickets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yohuang Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 (edited) Good, the world returns to normal. The market price for a fully transferrable C&R Schnellfeuer is $15k to $30k, depends on condition. $3k Schnellfeuer is simply too good to be true. Edited April 11 by yohuang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duza9999 Posted April 12 Report Share Posted April 12 I’ll reach out to the seller, if it is unregistered I’ve got a government museum that would take it on a form 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hammer Posted April 12 Report Share Posted April 12 13 hours ago, Duza9999 said: I’ll reach out to the seller, if it is unregistered I’ve got a government museum that would take it on a form 10. This guy is probably looking to make a buck and not interested in giving it away if it's full-auto and not registered. Keep your eyes peeled on gunbroker to see if he cuts it up and sells it as pieces/parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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