Digger Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 I came across this website tonight and thought it was interesting. http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?paged=4 I then Googled "Al Capone's machine gun" and found the following link, http://travelphotobase.com/v/USNYC/NYMP041.HTM ie another AC machine gun held by the NYPD Doe's anybody know anything of the authenticity of either of these guns? On a last note, I also came across this link of a miniature weapon website, apparently located in Russia(???), http://miniaturearsenal.com/miniature-weapons/submachine_guns/52-thompson_1921_drum.html Anybody know anything about this outfit or any of their gear? Regards, Digger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Contact Mario Gomes- myalcaponemuseum.com Pretty much knows everything on Capone. Actually knows everything on Capone- Super guy, lives in Canada OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 The 1921 A #4173 is credited as being owned by the Chicago Police Department. Capone's? Niti's? Guzik's? Moran's? Grady's? The "official version" of the underworld figure who owned this TSMG is "still classified." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 I have examined the gun at the Chicago Police Academy. It is one of the Chicago Police owned Thompson Guns that they keep at the range for demonstration purposes. It has nothing to do with Al Capone, other than the fact the Chicago P.D. purchased Thompson Guns during Capone's reign in Chicago. The serial number is listed as belonging to the CPD and does not have any known connection to Chicago gangsters. The CPD does still have three of the guns confiscated from Peter Von Frantzius during the St. Valelentine's Day Massacre investigation. The guns had the serial numbers ground off and have been restamped and registered to Chicago P.D. Now, the gun at the New York Police Museum was used by Capone gunmen to kill Frankie Uale in 1928. It was one of two Thompson Guns used in the killing. This one was abandoned in an automobile found near the scene of the killing. The other gun used , was of course, No. 2347, which was also used in the SVDM by Fred Burke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) I have examined the gun at the Chicago Police Academy. It is one of the Chicago Police owned Thompson Guns that they keep at the range for demonstration purposes. It has nothing to do with Al Capone, other than the fact the Chicago P.D. purchased Thompson Guns during Capone's reign in Chicago. And yet, apparently, sergeants at the Chicago Police Training Academy left Jon Zdziarski with the impression that #4173 was Scarface's TSMG. Manufacturing tales to accompany firearms appears to be an irresistible compulsion. Frank Iannimico was in the grips of this same compulsion when he fabricated/endorsed a fable to go along with Erma MP36 #014. http://www.machinegu...showtopic=13985 Edited May 7, 2012 by Arthur Fliegenheimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philasteen Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 gijive, my recollection is that the one 1921 on display at the NYPD museum is connected with Mad Dog Coll - it is either the one used in the 1931 attempted hit on Joey Rao that left 1 child dead and several other children wounded (and caused New York State to outlaw machineguns) or it was the one used to shoot Coll in 1933. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 philasteen, I contacted the New York Police Museum a few years ago on behalf of Gordon Herigstad. They claim the gun was the one that was used in the Frankie Uale hit in July of 1928. Gordon was eventually successful in convincing them to let him remove the barrel of the gun to determine the serial number, since it was ground off on both the receiver and grip frame. He discovered the number to be a 5000 series number that came back to a St. Louis area railroad (Missouri & Pacific maybe?). I don't know if the New York police really know what hit the gun is from. I don't recall rreading any material over the years that indicates they recovered the Thompson used in the Mad Dog Coll shooting. They did recover a gun in the Uale hit, though. Gordon's newest version of his Colt Thompson Serial Numbers will have the information on the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) I have examined the gun at the Chicago Police Academy. It is one of the Chicago Police owned Thompson Guns that they keep at the range for demonstration purposes. It has nothing to do with Al Capone, other than the fact the Chicago P.D. purchased Thompson Guns during Capone's reign in Chicago. And yet, apparently, sergeants at the Chicago Police Training Academy left Jon Zdziarski with the impression that #4173 was Scarface's TSMG. Manufacturing tales to accompany firearms appears to be an irresistible compulsion. Frank Iannimico was in the grips of this same compulsion when he fabricated/endorsed a fable to go along with Erma MP36 #014. http://www.machinegu...showtopic=13985 Arthur, Who knows why they claim the gun belonged to Al Capone? I guess it makes for a better story than saying, "Gee, I really don't know where they got this machine gun, it has been here ever since I've been here." Besides, saying it belonged to Capone makes for a better story on the Internet, since the author probably figures no one will take the time to disprove his claim. The Chicago Police confiscated and took into custody several Thompson Guns during the 1920's and 1930's. I don't think they all belonged to Al Capone. In fact, the one gun that they attribute to Capone using was the one that was used to kill State's Attorney McSwiggin at the Pony Inn on 12th Street in Cicero in 1926. They never recovered that gun. Edited May 8, 2012 by gijive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Not much into the Capone stuff, but things do filter down to me by default. In the outlaw collecting world, it's called the " Dillinger Slept Here" syndrome. I think gijive has it probably correct here by , " it makes for a better story " .If it's a Tommy gun, it's Al Capone's.Example- I'm a Brewmaster by trade, we brewed a Pilsner that came from the North Side Brewery in Chicago in the 20s. Capone bumped off O'Banion and took over the brewery. We called it Al Capone's original beer- Did Al hit O'Banion, no, Did Al brew the beer, no. Was the brewery owned by Capone , yes. So, the beer is Capone's by proxy I guess. Don't think this is a big dishonest thing by the police & the Thompson, to much apathy about it, just easy and a good story. Nobody cares till it's offered for sale. Then it becomes serious. OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Don't think this is a big dishonest thing by the police & the Thompson, to much apathy about it, just easy and a good story. Nobody cares till it's offered for sale. Then it becomes serious.OCM Fabrication and publication of tall tales to add prestige to a firearm may appear benign, but after time, the story may resonate louder than the absence of documentation. Whether the purveyor of bull is a LEO, author, or private party, the tall tale should be called out when it is first publicized. That way the phony prestige will be eradicated should the firearm, or any item for that matter, ever come up for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubmarinerFan Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Since we're on the topic of gangsters and Thompsons, has anyone done any research into the New York mob under Charlie Luciano in the 1920s and 1930s and if there are any Thompsons that were used by them? I'm curious if gangsters like Bugsy Siegel, Lepke Buchalter, and Albert Anastasia ever used Thompsons in their killings. These guys have very long rap sheets and were all members of the infamous Murder Inc. It would be an interesting research project. It seems that Hollywood however has made more out of the Thompson--Gangster connection than is reality. In reality, most of the gangsters probably thought the Thompson was a clumsy, big, and loud weapon, not the ideal tool to take someone out quietly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) SubmarinerFan, The New York gangsters used a Thompson to shoot Vincent "Mad Dog" Coll in the London Chemist Drug Store while he was in a phone booth, as philasteen correctly pointed out. I'm sure there were other instances in New York, but Chicago seemed to be the Tommy Gun killing capital. Several hits were accomplished in the Windy City with a "Chopper." Calvin Goddard recorded several unsolved murders that used the Tommy Gun. Several guns were recovered over the years, too. Edited May 8, 2012 by gijive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Agree Submariner Fan- The Thompson was more of a working tool , at least for the outlaws. To clumsy as you say. The Colt 45 auto seemed to be the weapon of choice. This seemed to be the case at arrests.Couple Thompsons displayed at a bank robbery was a nice scare tatic and needed if the police showed up out front. Barrow was a little of an exception with his BAR, but this was for car to car battles. Baby Face Nelson had no problem opening up a Thompson inside a bank, aimed at the ceiling or such- Really quiets the crowd down. HAAA.The mob a different thing, I believe it was used for one reason.Ellen Poulsen has written a great book on Lucky L., if interested. Great historian & long time friend. OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philasteen Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Well, at one point the gun on display was attributed to Coll. This was circa 2002-2003'ish when I saw it last. Funny as I live only 10 miles away but haven't been back since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bug Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) There's a funny, relevant joke on page 15 of the 2nd quarter SAR. . Bob D PS Nice article by Frank I on Submachineguns, too. It would benefit newbs/olds alike. Edited May 9, 2012 by bug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 There's a funny, relevant joke on page 15 of the 2nd quarter SAR. . Bob D PS Nice article by Frank I on Submachineguns, too. It would benefit newbs/olds alike. Bob D, Yes, that cartoon was great! I was also going to mention the excellent article that Frank wrote on submachine gun selection. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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