Original Parts Kits?

[firearm]

I am somewhat new to this board but have been in the Thompson game for many years now. 38+. I stay pretty low profile, so most don't know me (or care). In any case, If I do this wrong I guess I will have my post deleted or moved. I am curious as to what some of the RKI's think about the canvas parts kits that I am posting. Your 2 cents will be appreciated. I know one of the 6 is a cheaper military kit, but the other have been around here for many years. I have more around here somewhere and will jpeg them when time permits. I have been fortunate enough over the years to acquire some pretty rare Thompson items and hope to post them here so that others may see, learn, and educate. I also know that just because you have a lot of something, doesn't mean you know more than everyone else. I jpeg'd and numbered the 6 that I found today as best I could. A couple of these came with weapons years ago. A few came from Dr. Lyle Gage, a side kick of Roger Cox. What do you think?

[TD.]

firearm,

Welcome to the Board. It is posts like this that make this Forum great. Thank you for sharing part of your collection and welcoming a discussion.

 

When examining a canvas spare parts pouch, I want to know if the included parts are Colt's. This is a great indicator of authenticity as spare Colt's parts are difficult to find. I do not profess to be an expert in this area but based on published information and information I have collected over the years, I would think all the pouches you have displayed above are fakes. I feel very confident with my opinion regarding the four MILLS marked canvas cases. I would want to know the past history of the RUSCO and unmarked canvas cases, if available, before offering an absolute opinion on these two cases. That said, I certainly welcome all opinions and dialog regarding the above canvas pouches. I want this to be an educational experience for all Board members.

 

All good stuff!!!

[colt21a]

If this is Nick>>>you do know George out of Pa. who is now passed away made a bunch of these well over a decade maybe longer, And I have never seen a Rusco marked one Bu t he did do a good job of stamping out the Mills one.s some with 1921 on them and selling them with a mix of parts some Colt some savage, and a flimsy canvas material, and some really dirtied up and oil to look like they had been around for decades. I think

ROGER had one or two original and a little darker in color And the web material seemed little stronger you might have one winner there. and the guy from Pa. made a bunch by now after 20 or 25 years of use and oil, and some went out dirty and oily.. And I never noticed minty cond super clean one yet.I am sure it is still out there. even he offered me some for 300 I passed on them since I knew what it was not a hidden stash from some pa. police dept who somehow got them all.Probably a box of them still stored around someplace.

good to see so many together again.Colt21A Ron

[firearm]

Good guess Ron. Interesting that TD would think that all of these are fake. Maybe they are. I have had all of them for quite some time now. That being said, #5 is a fake. It came from "GD" in PA before he passed. I suspected it was after I purchased it and put it in a zip bag. It has remained there for 21 years. In comparing it to the others, there is a definite difference. That is in the tie strap. There is light stitching that runs length wise along the strap. None of the others have that. #6 is a kit that I picked up at a Gun Show in Dallas years ago. I just assumed it was a military kit. I was comparing some of these to a post w/ pics that David put up regarding canvas in Dec. 2008. I wonder if the ones that he is showing in his post are fakes? Hard to tell because you can only get so much from a jpeg on the net. A couple of these came from very reputable people and with a weapon in an original hardcase. Not that they weren't sold a fake years ago as well. When I get back from out of town, I going to get my magnifying glass out and go through the parts. I will post what I find here. Who knows for sure what was made in spare parts kit (canvas) by whom and when? What the cleaning brushes were made of. Seems like I read that the originals cleaning brushes were made of solid brass. Anyone know for sure?

[mnshooter]

Interesting. Thanks to the OP for the high photo content.

 

What would have been the value of these fake pouches 20-25 years ago?

(Would expect to have been fairly high to justify the effort).

Edited December 2, 2017 by mnshooter

[colt21a]

Nick has a point could be faked which we know and some original..Off track here I just bought a S.S. Helmet M18 redone in period 1933/35 From a old vet. Showed it to a few and they said who did the work? I said what work.And thy said well it can't be real, really nice and all. And in great shape. So real scary. I said I put it quick, he said what he wanted. And some said well that is a 20 grand helmet. And I say nope a grand helmet what I paid for it. So I post it on another forum, And some members say are you selling? and I say no its posted for others to enjoy. It is one of those things you take a chance on. pay the money and the box gets delivered you unpack it clean off the darn dust and say WOW I am happy with this, It really looks nice. and give it the handling and smell test.

 

Do I care to sell nope it looks right smells and feels right. All real German steel and parts, And original to the era.Is or was it faked from the vet. nope he got it and felt it was time to move it on to somebody who would appreciate it. A few buddies already said Ron when ready to sell I will take it. One expert was impressed to say a master did the work and he was not sure who. And I said well maybe it was a German in 1933/35 When you said they did them. His answer well it looks so good.

And my comeback that is why I bought it.

 

Can I get my grand back sure. Do I want to NO. In fact can probably sell for more.Do I want to no! I like it too much for the history and the era.Was going to take it to SAR Friday for display but after thought no handling and fiddling with folk, and 40 questions. And its not For Sale...no a waste of my time and others. Just like the spare parts kits nice and if not for sale who cares. Nick likes them, for the look the smell and feel.

LIke I did I opened the box and Magic hit, Maybe it was that ole German helmet maker telling me from beyond I enjoyed it now you do the same.

 

Colt 21A Ron

[TD.]

firearm,

Excellent point about the canvas cases pictured in the FAQ pinned section. I believe both are fake. I am sure David will take a look.

 

I feel very strong about the MILLS pouch featured in the FAQ section as well as the four you posted about, above, are fakes. I have never seen a RUSCO canvas case with impeccable provenance. MILLS canvas cases with impeccable provenance do exist. But I welcome all comments. I consider this forum a learning experience, not a debate stage.

 

I do not believe the color of the bore brush is determinative as to originality. Brass is the most common color but I know of steel bore brushes found in original Spare Part Kits with impeccable provenance.

 

I believe Roger Cox was correct in his 1982 book that the Canvas Spare Parts Pouch is a very rare item. It appears GD (I wish someone would post his name) in Pennsylvania decided to remedy that situation. As with the Gordon Herigstad Spare Parts Kits, there are differences in known originals and Gordon's unmarked reproductions or GD's fakes. Given today's prices, you must be an informed buyer. Both Gordon and GD did a great disservice to the Thompson community for many years ahead with these products.

 

I look forward to additional pictures of your remaining canvas pouches.

[colt21a]

George Dellcollo from PA. may he rest, He was a great guy to me in all the dealing. Now you have it Anything else?

Colt21A Ron

[colt21a]

A disservice...... Gordon Wrote the book. And I am still around to set it all straight.And in another fifty years its all History anyhow. And the youth Won't care. They don't now.Have fun with time you have left.Because let me tell ya it can be gone in a instant.Colt 21A Ron Edited November 30, 2017 by colt21a

[firearm]

Does anyone have a jpeg of an original Rusco or Mills parts kit that they know is an original for sure? If so, can you post it?

[Bridgeport28A1]

I'd buy one of the fake (reproduction) web spare parts kits, but only at a reproduction item price. No need for the spare parts inside as I have those already. Use it with my USMC shipping case display. I would mark it as a reproduction inside on the pouch.

 

Welcome to the boards Nick, we sent each other quite a few letters back in the 1980's when you were asking me about military stamps on Thompsons.

[TD.]

Ron,

Gordon's unmarked Spare Parts Kit is a real disservice to the Thompson community. I spoke to the manufacturer of his reproduction kits. Gordon took great pains to insure it was identical in everyway possible to the original kit. Of course, exact duplication was not possible, but the end result is pretty close if you are not very familiar with the product. What's sad is some type of unobtrusive mark or feature could have been added to his kits for no additional costs. I agree, Gordon wrote a great book and was a leader in the Thompson community. Unfortunately, part of his legacy will be the counterfeiting of his reproduction Spare Part Kits in the many years to come.

 

Thank you for posting the name of the person from Pennsylvania who made many/most/all of the counterfeit or fake canvas pouches that grace many collections.

 

firearm,

I too would like to see a picture of an original RUSCO canvas case with impeccable provenance. For a picture of an original MILLS canvas case with impeccable provenance, turn to page 633 of The Ultimate Thompson Book by Tracie Hill.

 

​Russ,

I too would like one of the fake MILLS canvas pouches, especially one with the FEB. 1921 date.

 

​All good stuff!!!

[dalbert]

Yes, I need to update the Thompson Canvas Pinned Post...The two canvas spare parts kits shown there are reproductions, and I have been meaning to update it. At the time they were posted, we thought both were original.

 

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[arrgh1934]

The idea that Gordon did a disservice to the “Thompson Community” is absurd and disappointing.Few people have given more in the way of research and documentation of the Thompson than Gordon, Several days prior to his passing he was still working on additional leads to the serial number of a 27ac found defaced by our P.D. in the 30s,It now resides in the new Chiefs office behind glass. I promised him I would some day get the permission to remove barrel and will do so this Winter. As for the parts case, I have the original with original contents ,cleaning rod and police case all documented and used in Gordon’s reproductions. I hope this Winter to publish Gordon’s written account how the case was reproduced and several clues differentiateing the original from the reproduction. It’s much easier than most know. Gordon gave most of us more credit than we deserved by not marking the cases. As far as his legacy is concerned it doesn’t need to be trashed here, He was a great guy and deserves respect. You know well if he were here today and you needed anything especially info on a 21,he would drop everything and help,

[TD.]

arrgh1934,

I think it is great we have differing opinions about part of Gordon's legacy. Given there are those in every market that will fake products to sell to the unsuspecting enthusiasts, I expected more from Gordon when he reproduced the Spare Part Kits and cleaning rods. I don't need any clues as to originality. A simple unobtrusive mark or minor design variation would have sufficed. And not changed production costs or profit margin or market share. Gordon is much different from George Dellcollo in that he did not manufacture fakes for the marketplace. But the end result could very well be the same by someone who I believe knew better. That said, and as I stated above, I certainly applaud Gordon for all the good things he did for the Thompson community. His book, Colt Thompson Serial Numbers, is a must have reference guide for any serious student of the Thompson gun.

 

One of our Board members purchased a STL PD Model of 1927 with a defaced serial number. I am sure he would be interested in learning more about the Model of 1927 at your police department.

[giantpanda4]

Yes I would!

[firearm]

Just back in from out of town. OK. Back to square one. I am just curious as to why several on the board think "ALL" of these parts kits are re-pop's? I mean no disrespect or am I knowledgeable enough to show proof that they are not. I am sure you guys have been in the game way longer than me and I yield. On the flip, side, I haven't seen any "proof" from anyone that they are not original, other than the "G.D." parts kit which I knew was a re-pop. That said, I knew at least two were not originals when I posted the pics. I suspect two are. I am basing this on where they came from, how long ago, and who they came from. All are up in the air in my mind until someone can really point out why that are not. Over the years I have seen many reference manuals and history books on Thompson's and many other subjects that have been proven incorrect over time. Nothing in these reference books is absolute IMHO. Once again! I am not taking shots at any RKI's. Please do not be defensive, I am just looking for more info.

[TD.]

firearm,

These canvas pouches are a very uncommon item. Roger Cox was most likely correct when he said in 1982 that this was a very rare item. Unfortunately for everyone, greed took over from the guy in Pennsylvania. I dare say most people on the Board have never seen a canvas pouch in-person unless it was in the Tracie Hill collection displayed at the All Thompson Show & Shoot.

 

My analysis is based on the fact I have never seen a documented MILLS canvas pouch with the FEB. 1921 date over the MILLS logo. It is worth noting the pouch in the Oscar Payne collection does not have this date marking above the MILLS mark. I have been told that documented fakes with this date are known to have been sold by the seller in Pennsylvania. I have also been told that MILLS would not have used the date mark when these canvas cases were manufactured. This makes me suspect these cases are fake.

 

I have never seen a documented RUSCO canvas pouch. Again, I have been told that documented fakes with the RUSCO name are known to have been sold by the seller in Pennsylvania.

 

I have never seen a documented unmarked canvas pouch. I know most people refer to the unmarked canvas pouch as a military model. I don't think I have ever seen a canvas pouch like this listed in any military publication. If a military product, I would suspect it would have been mass produced and a more common item. I would also think the military would have wanted it marked by the manufacturer based on all the other marked products found with military provenance during World War II.

 

The one pouch you have with only the MILLS marking would probably give most enthusiasts the most trouble to evaluate. This includes me. However, you made it much easier by posting pictures of the other MILLS pouches with the FEB. 1921 dates. By comparing pictures of known original MILLS marked canvas pouches (including the Payne pouch) to your one MILLS marked pouch makes me believe it is a fake (based only on pictures). My guess is the faker in Pennsylvania did not have an original canvas pouch to use as a model and was forced to use pictures and the more commonly found MILLS marked items as a basis for his production run of fakes.

 

There are certainly no absolutes with my analysis. Given the very few fake canvas pouches that exist and the even rarer documented original canvas pouches, this area could use a lot more study. I look forward to the pedigree of the parts found in your pouches.

[Bridgeport28A1]

I ran across this 2006 thread on spare part pouches when searching the website for another item.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7386

[jrlumpp]

Thanks to TD and Sig who took great time and effort to help me identify and authenticate my colt spare parts kit. Gordon's kit looks real close to the original. Sharp guys on this board know their stuff!!