tom silver Posted January 13, 2021 Report Share Posted January 13, 2021 Tomorrow my Ingram M6 Police arrives at my local gun store and I am excited to see it. This store sells silencers but they have never conducted a transfer of a machine gun or SMG. This worries me a bit. The Auction house that I got the SMG from sent me a document from ATF and in it is stated that the Transferee is the Gun Store that they are sending it to. It appears to be Transferred in the name of the new retail gun store? So to me, that kind of seems like now they own my M6? This form says Application for Tax-Exempt Transfer of Firearm and Registration to Special Occupational Taxpayer. Form OMB No 1140—13 (01/31/2011) does any one know what this means please? What does this mean?Thanks Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 Any interstate transfer has to be to an SOT. The SOT will transfer it to you. As far as BATF is concerned the SOT is currently the legal owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom silver Posted January 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 If the SOT is the legal owner, what's to prevent them from saying they own it and I don't??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom silver Posted January 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 Any interstate transfer has to be to an SOT. The SOT will transfer it to you. As far as BATF is concerned the SOT is currently the legal owner.If the SOT is the owner as far as the BATF is concerned, what's to stop them from saying they own it and I don't later on?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 A minor correction: Registration under BATF+E/NFA regulations does not confer ownership. ATF has no authority concerning ownership of registered NFA.An SOT to whom a transferring MG is registered does not "own" the MG. He is only the registrant. Ownership is conferred by payment for the purchase the MG. The person to whom the MG was sold, bequeathed, or otherwise is designated the "owner" through specific payment or legal documentation does not lose ownership when the MG temporarily transfers to an SOT in his state of residence for subsequent transfer to him. FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom silver Posted January 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 thanks a lot. I really much better knowing that the SOT cannot take ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 Your dealer probably already has it for sale. Have you checked GB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom silver Posted January 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 Your dealer probably already has it for sale. Have you checked GB!very funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black River Militaria CII Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 You laugh and mock the misfortune of others, but sadly, crooked dealers have sold MGs on their books that did not belong to them. This has happened with MGs in estates where a co-owner in a gun business with an SOT passed away and the other co-owner sold the MGs on their books that belonged to the deceased. Also know of several situations where a transferee waiting on an approval passed away and the dealer sold the MG without the knowledge of the family. This info is anecdotal and we know about it because the executors of the dead transferees followed up on the thefts, but the co-owner thief got away with it. I knew the co-owner whose MGs were stolen by his former business partner. This was many years ago but there have been another example or two since. Lesson to be learned. FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSMGguy Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 You laugh and mock the misfortune of others... Yeah. Really bad form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeRanger Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 There are two paperwork trails. The BATF paperwork and the commercial paperwork. Your bill of sale and whatever paperwork the seller has retained will establish your ownership claim. BATF doesn't have anything to do with those, they only know whose name is on the current Form. If you have no bill of sale and you have an unscrupulous dealer then things could get messy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 Your dealer probably already has it for sale. Have you checked GB!Just remember at one time not that long ago you were the new guy that asked a million newbie questions, yet the group here took time to answer them, regardless of how easy they were. Not to say what you said cannot happen, but Bob gave the right answer to help a newbie understand the process. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom silver Posted January 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 (edited) thanks Edited January 14, 2021 by tom silver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalbert Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 Tom, No one is putting you down. The really bad form comment was directed to another member who posted in this thread, joking about how your dealer could potentially have the item posted on GB. That comment was not directed towards you. David Albertdalbert@sturmgewehr.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom silver Posted January 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartlow Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 (edited) I feel compelled to put in my two cents even though others have offered good input. Especially given the prices of machine guns, there is a lot of trust in others required to buy machine guns. The gun will be registered to other parties as the gun gets to you, the final/actual buyer. Those people have the ability to take advantage of their temporary possession of the gun. It doesn't happen a lot, but it can, and it does happen once in a while. Pick your local dealer carefully. Buy from a trustworthy source. Ideally you wouldn't have to pay for the gun until ATF had approved the transfer, so you know the gun exists and is not going to be transferred to anyone else after you paid. But the machine gun market with a very limited supply and plenty of demand lets sellers dictate the terms, so payment up front on trust is the norm. As others noted, ATF registration is not about ownership, it is about legal possession. Who "owns" it is a function of who paid for it and who has the right to control its destiny. Often the legal owner and possessor are the same, but when an NFA gun is moving to a new owner they are not. Contracts can help here. Being confident that the parties you are doing business with are trustworthy also goes a long way. One final suggestion. If you are thinking you like or are going to buy more machine guns that are also considered curios or relics (like an Ingram M6) you can eliminate having to use a local dealer buy getting a curio/relic FFL. The holder of a c&r ffl can get the gun direct from an out of state seller, like the auction house you bought the gun from. You still have to do a transfer form, still have to pay the transfer tax (unless the gun is deactivated) but you eliminate having to use a local dealer and trust that he or she is honest and will take care of your gun while they have it. Edited January 14, 2021 by Bartlow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 (edited) The correct answer was already given. I was just having some fun. Thats part of what were all here for! to have some fun! Serious response now--- Look over your application VERY closely! look for errors. I swear my dealer has screwed up 33% of my transfers for all kinds of reasons and I never look them over. For some reason i continue to use her too (she is a good person). Wrong zip code, wrong barrel length, etc. The worst was when she clicked YES for all the Criminal responses on the back. on THREE FORMS she did at the same time....when you screw up that badly the form doesnt just go back for corrections, its declined..you start over...luckily it was an Inspector ive dealt with multiple times and she cut me a break. I had to resubmit and she jumped me ahead of the pile. Stil took 2 months, but better than 6!. Strongly recommend getting a C&R. Its dirt cheap and can save you $ and time. If you plan on buying a ton more i strongly recommend getting your FFL and buy samples. I regret not going that direction early on. Im moving that direction right now and have been selling a few of my guns off. Good news is if you buy smart you wont ever loose money in this hobby. Edited January 14, 2021 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted January 14, 2021 Report Share Posted January 14, 2021 Good luck with getting your FFL just to buy cheaper machine guns.....yeah ATF really cracks on that behavior. This, sadly, goes to show your complete lack of understanding of the entire FFL/SOT process and along with the fact of helping someone to get into hot water with the ATF. For you to openly suggest that on an open forum, to lead someone on with such distain, furthermore proves you incompetence on the subject matter at hand. We all know dealers have sold guns that were on the books as repairs or brokering them when not in hand yet, but your complete lack of self control to resist the urge to be a smart ass has shown to be in extremely bad taste. Rant over.....Im out..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) Whatever Im getting my ffl for a business plan. Im not getting an sot at the moment Edited January 15, 2021 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got Uzi Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 Huggy.....you might want to check yourself at the door as you are losing friends, ground, and credibility at this point. Sure hope any potential clients dont frequent this forum and see the level of jackass they are dealing with. Btw whatever is a great response.....for a 13 year old girl in the mid 90s.....reminded me of a response from the show Full House.....HOW WUDE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom silver Posted January 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 Well, thank you everyone for your insights on my question. I hope I did not create any hostility amongst you all. My M6 finally will get to my FFL SOT dealer on Monday. Fedex somehow F ed up the shipping and the Auction house sent it out by ground snail which I did not request (they stated I said that which was total BS). Now I will need to make sure that the postage goofs did not damage it during the shipment as many of them don't give a damn about customers boxes and they tend to abuse and toss them from depot to truck, and so on. It it's damaged, I will just ship it back and demand my dough back for it and move on. You know nothing is easy when you work with an auction house. So it will be what it will be and I hope on Monday to see a Ingram M6 in the same condition that it was represented on the auction site. Again I am sorry if my question, created some negative reprocussions. Thanks for your comments and words of wisdom. TS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom silver Posted January 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 I feel compelled to put in my two cents even though others have offered good input. Especially given the prices of machine guns, there is a lot of trust in others required to buy machine guns. The gun will be registered to other parties as the gun gets to you, the final/actual buyer. Those people have the ability to take advantage of their temporary possession of the gun. It doesn't happen a lot, but it can, and it does happen once in a while. Pick your local dealer carefully. Buy from a trustworthy source. Ideally you wouldn't have to pay for the gun until ATF had approved the transfer, so you know the gun exists and is not going to be transferred to anyone else after you paid. But the machine gun market with a very limited supply and plenty of demand lets sellers dictate the terms, so payment up front on trust is the norm. As others noted, ATF registration is not about ownership, it is about legal possession. Who "owns" it is a function of who paid for it and who has the right to control its destiny. Often the legal owner and possessor are the same, but when an NFA gun is moving to a new owner they are not. Contracts can help here. Being confident that the parties you are doing business with are trustworthy also goes a long way. One final suggestion. If you are thinking you like or are going to buy more machine guns that are also considered curios or relics (like an Ingram M6) you can eliminate having to use a local dealer buy getting a curio/relic FFL. The holder of a c&r ffl can get the gun direct from an out of state seller, like the auction house you bought the gun from. You still have to do a transfer form, still have to pay the transfer tax (unless the gun is deactivated) but you eliminate having to use a local dealer and trust that he or she is honest and will take care of your gun while they have it.Yes I will apply for the Curio/Relic FFL. I do not want to trust that some gun store will be honorable when it comes to MGs. I will also be removing all 3 mags before I leave the store on Monday. I do trust the owners but not the ones working there. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom silver Posted January 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) I applied the the C&R. Trusting that gun stores will do the right thing, is like trusting your wife will never file for divorce. I'm on wife number 3, the other two filed but I made money on both divorces. Lucky me. Edited January 29, 2021 by tom silver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 Having a C&R is all around great for collectors. Keep in mind youre still at the mercy of dealers if the item is not C&R eligible. Its a good idea to talk to dealers and get someone lined up that you trust (maybe this guy) for future transfers. One thing Ive found with NFA stuff, they are like potato chips...... Congrats again on your purchase and welcome to the community!! Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted January 30, 2021 Report Share Posted January 30, 2021 Close to 0 chance your dealer will cheat you. Sure it can happen. I know dozens of Nfa owners and not 1 has had an issue. C&r is smart though. Cheap and does many good things. Find a dealer you trust. 99.9% of gun owners are good guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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