chitowngangster Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 Arthur, Since it preoccupied you so much i went digging into my site for you and that case was not part of the cache found as seen in this photo I'm including.The cases at the scene look more like suitcase luggage of the sort. So i guess you're right on your point. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif Chitown http://members.fortunecity.com/moran9/903106d0.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 Thanks for the confirmation and the pics. I think this board serves many functions for different people. But aside from sharing photos and stories, the novel aspect of the board is the discovery of new info on the TSMG and on occasion, the clarification on previously firmly held beliefs and assumptions on the minutia of accessories and the weapon itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
full auto 45 Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 WOW! He had a Winchester '07 .351. I wish I know the number on it to compare it to the 2 I have. Does the Police still have that Winchester .351? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitowngangster Posted October 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 QUOTE (full auto 45 @ Oct 10 2004, 08:12 PM) WOW! He had a Winchester '07 .351. I wish I know the number on it to compare it to the 2 I have. Does the Police still have that Winchester .351? Hello Mike, From what the officers told me there is that back in those days some of the recovered weapons would fall to the wayside into a policeman collection if he favored the gun.Those Winchesters were not there when i visited. Chitown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 They dumped the big stuff in Lake Superior. That's what the Edmund Fitzgerald hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantpanda4 Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 Actually there is a very viable theory that the Fitz hit the Lake Superior Shoals (20" below the surface) off the tip of the Keweenaw, and subsequently fatigued in the high waves. Don't ask the USCG, they will say hatch covers, but recent photos disprove that. And yes, it does matter - to the insurance companies that never paid te victims families due to the faulty hatch cover theory of the USCG. I lived in the UP for 11 yeras, it is still debated now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philasteen Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 As a former Michigan resident and big follower of the Edmund Fitzgerald story, the only thing to say is that the cause is unknown. The official coast guard report of water coming in through faulty hatch covers is at least partially discredited. With no further investigation planned (or permitted, since the wreck is off limits to exploration), we may never know. Just think, some of the taconite pellets on board could have been used to make steel for West Hurley Thompsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 The recovered ship's bell from the Edmond Fitzgerald was made from melted down confiscated TSMG's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Jr Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 QUOTE (hardrede @ Oct 12 2004, 08:50 PM) AF, I really am tired of coming here and reading your pabulum. Why don't you try a board that appreciates narcissisum???? He never quits.... Asshat Arthur.... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 QUOTE AF, I really am tired of coming here and reading your pabulum. Why don't you try a board that appreciates narcissisum???? I'm already missing you in anticipation of your absence. Oh, by the way is "narcissisum" a relative of narcissism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21 smoker Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 hardrede,...I remember when the Tall Ships sailed down the Great Lakes in 1976 for the Bicentennial celebrations and the captains of these ships voicing their concerns about the type and frequency of the waves...interesting that insurance was denied...I thought at the time it was just folklore... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Iannamico Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 I can open up the " Tommy Jr." forums if you kids want to fight nicely amongst yourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notch Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Wow... What was this thread about again....? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 QUOTE (Notch @ Oct 14 2004, 02:10 PM) Wow... What was this thread about again....? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif Notch, Welcome to the board. Don't worry about these guys, they'll settle down soon. Seems like every 4-5 weeks one of these s--t slinging matches erupts and ya just gotta keep your head down till the s--t stops flying. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Well I'm going to crawl back behind my rock. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif Gentlemen, you may continue. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/tongue.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Big D, I think those emails would be most entertaining to read. My parents always taught me to share. Here is some more Edmond Fitzgerald minutia to take up more band width. "The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee" Gitche Gumee translates roughly to "Shining Big-Sea-Water". "The lake it is said never gives up her dead when the skies of November turn gloomy" To put it rather bluntly, the reason so few bodies are recovered from off shore drownings in Lake Superior is because the bodies first tend to sink (or are still on board a vessel) but because of the depth and frigid temperatures, the victims do not naturally decompose. Because of the lack of oxygen producing organisms, the bodies remain on the bottom. "With a load of iron ore 26,000 tons more than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty" When empty, the Fitzgerald weighed 8,686 net tons. The hold was filled with 26,013 tons of iron ore pellets called taconite, used mainly for automobile production. "That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed when the gales of November came early" Lake superior is on average 533 feet deep with an extreme depth of 1333 feet. It is 400 miles long which, when the wind blows across it's length, the waves can build to greater heights than found on less dense sea water, even in hurricane winds. "The ship was the pride of the American side" The Fitz was named after a Milwaukee banker and was launched into the River Rouge basin in June 1958. The owner was Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company of Milwaukee and operated by Oglebay Norton. "Comin' back from some mill in Wisconsin" Superior, Wisconsin. "As the big freighters go it was bigger than most" The ship was 729 feet long, 75 feet wide, 39 feet deep. She was the largest Great Lakes steamer when launched in 1958, its size limited only by the largest lock on Sault St, Marie. Larger 1000 ft. boats were possible after the construction of the Poe lock in 1969. "With a crew and good captain well seasoned" Captain Ernest R. McSorley, 62 years old, started sailing as a deckhand on ocean vessels when he was 18 years old. After transferring to freshwater freighters, he made his way through the ranks, eventually becoming the youngest to make captain. "Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms when they left fully loaded for Cleveland" The Fitzgerald was "downbound" to unload its cargo in Detroit and then continue on to Cleveland to dock for the winter months. "And later that night when the ship's bell rang could it be the north wind they'd bin feelin'" The Fitzgerald and the Anderson, a second freighter following close behind, knew of the gale warnings posted by the National Weather Service. They decided to alter their course and head towards the North shore of Superior for shelter against the heart of the storm. "The wind in the wires made a tattletale sound and a wave broke over the railing" The two boats (great lake sailors prefer "boat" to "ship"), followed the Canadian shore to the Caribou Island near "Six Fathom Shoals." The Anderson's captain Jesse "Bernie" Cooper, remarks how close the Fitz is to the shoals. Crossing the lake in an attempt to harbor the storm, the two make a course for Whitefish Bay Michigan. In heavy seas, the Fitzgerald sustains topside damage and radios the Anderson, "Anderson, this is the Fitzgerald. I have sustained some topside damage. I have a fence rail laid down, two vents lost or damaged, and a list. I'm checking down. Will you stay by me till I get to Whitefish?" "And every man knew as the captain did too, 'twas the witch of November come stealin'" The Fitzgerald has two radar sets but both use a common antenna. The Fitzgerald calls on the radio to the Arthur M. Anderson. "Anderson, this is the Fitzgerald. I have lost both radars. Can you provide me with radar plots till we reach Whitefish Bay?" "Charlie on that, Fitzgerald. We'll keep you advised of your position." "The dawn came late and the breakfast had to wait when the gales of November came slashin'" Winds were 40 to 45 knots with waves to 20 ft. "When afternoon came it was freezin' rain in the face of a hurricane west wind" The Sault St, Marie Locks report winds of seventy knots, gusts up to eighty-two, about ninety-five mph! " When supper time came the old cook came on deck sayin' "fellas it's too rough to feed ya" Ironically, the "old" cook was suffering from bleeding ulcers and was unable to make the last voyage. He is considered by some as "the sole survivor of the Fitzgerald". "At seven p.m. a main hatchway caved in he said "fellas it's been good to know ya" The Anderson reports being hit by two huge waves which go over the pilot house, 35 feet above the water line. "The captain wired in he had water comin' in and the good ship and crew was in peril" Although McSorley told the Anderson he had developed a list and was, in fact, taking on water, his main concern was that because of the loss of radar and new reports of the Whitefish Bay Lighthouse being broken down, the Fitzgerald was sailing blind and due to the list, the Fitzgerald was pulling to the left. They had to rely on the Anderson for guidance. When the Anderson radioed back later to ask how they were doing with their problem, McSorley replied "We are holding our own". That was the last thing heard from the Fitzgerald. "And later that night when 'is lights went out of sight came the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" The tremendous waves on Lake Superior kept interfering with the Anderson's radar, showing the Fitzgerald some 10 miles ahead of her. As the Anderson would dip with a large wave, the Fitzgerald and all other boats in the area would disappear, showing up again as the Anderson would crest. At 7:10 the Anderson rose above a wave and the radar showed three blips, saltwater ships, the Navafors, the Avafors, and the Benfri about 20 miles down bound. But no Fitzgerald. In the span of just a few seconds, with no distress call, the Fitzgerald was gone. "Does anyone know where the love of god goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours" The Anderson contacted the Coast Guard in Sault St. Marie. "Soo Control, this is the Anderson. I am very concerned about the welfare of the steamer Edmund Fitzgerald. He was right in front of us, experiencing a little difficulty. He was taking on a small amount of water and none of the up bound ships have passed him. I can see no lights as before and I don't have him on radar. I just hope he didn't take a nose dive!" The air temperature at the time was 49 degrees and the water temperature was 40 degrees. Under these conditions a man would go into shock in 30 minutes. "The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay if they'd put fifteen more miles behind 'er" A floating debris field was found the next morning and a 1000 yard long oil slick about 13 miles from Whitefish Point. On later days, small objects were found near the Canadian shore, life vests and rings, bottles, splintered wood, the largest object being a crumpled raft with the Fitzgerald's name. "They might have split up or they might have capsized they may have broke deep and took water" The wreckage is in two major pieces. The bow section is 276 feet long and upright. The stern section is 253 feet long and upside down. The sections are 170 feet apart. About 200 feet of the midsection is disintegrated. Although there is no conclusive evidence pointing to what the cause was, the most popular theory is that because the Fitz was taking on water, the taconite cargo shifted toward the bow making it unbalanced, heavy to the front. When the Fitz plunged into the valley between two large waves, she submarined to the bottom, striking the lake's floor with enough force to break her in two. "And all that remains is the faces and the names of the wives and the sons and the daughters" There has been no attempt by the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum at Whitefish Point, which had made several exploratory expeditions down to the wreckage, to recover the crew. "Lake Huron rolls Superior sings in the rooms of her ice water mansion Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams the islands and bays are for sportsmen and farther below Lake Ontario takes in what Lake Erie can send her and the Iron boats go as the mariners all know with the gales of November remembered" There is estimated to be more than 6000 commercial shipwrecks in the Great Lakes, and fewer than half of these have been located. "In a musty old hall in Detroit they prayed in the maritime sailors' cathedral the church bell chimed 'til it rang 29 times for each man on the Edmund Fitzgerald" The ship went down in Lake Superior on November 10, 1975 with 29 men on board. "The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee Superior they said never gives up her dead when the gales of November come early" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Jr Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Hardrede, I've just been contacted by Mr. Lightfoot. He said as long as I didn't sing along as I posted his lyrics he wouldn't prosecute. Did you never get over being passed up for the safety patrol in your elementary school? JJ, That was your most profound post to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 BigD, Yeah, they covered that on WKRP when 11 people died back in 79 outside Riverfront Coliseum in Cincinnati, OH. But I think Gordon had it in his contract that he wouldn't play "festival seating" concerts for fear the rock fans wouldn't be able to contain themselves from expressing violent grief when he segued from "If You Could Read My Mind" into "The Wreck of The EF." We must be precise since the self christened hall monitor is very literal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Jr Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 Some of you old guys are really entertaining. Jr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondAmend Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 hardrede, My kids told me they knew MY dementia had set in when I bought the Thompson. Of course, that was before they saw the value go up, up, up. Now they call me crazy for not having bought more. 2A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 I hope after you do your lunch room duty, you clean it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter63a Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Perhaps we could hold the, "World's First Spelling Bee And Trivia Contest For Machinegunners!" http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif Where is Alex Trebek when he is truly needed! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 BigD, I doubt he can see the pink through the padding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Ploughboy Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 FWIW re copyright infringement in general, the U.S. Copyright Act has a "Fair Use" exception. See 17 U.S.C. sec. 107. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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