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Kahr Thompson M1a1 Sbr


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#21 hughlong

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 01:20 PM

as somewhat of a newcomer to the thompson bug...my thoughts on WH and other varieties of the Thompson design is that the whole issue is similar to that of a Colt 1911 and 1911A1.....the colts were the first...they had Browning design it for them and they made it....but almost immediately, there were others, springfield armory,Remington UMC,North American Arms, and later Remington Rand,Ithaca, Union Switch....and so on...until the present day....Wilson, Springfield Armory, Inc., Charles Daley,etc....you get my point..

is any of them thought of as a REPLICA???

I think not. The SMGs are all "Thompsons"...........and they add variety and I think some excitement to our hobby; not to mention all the support we have by others who join in with a west hurley or a Kahr or whatever.

I have a Colt 1921...and I really like it ....but I like my Group Industries thompson a lot too and will buy some more of these wonderful american made wonders, including west hurley and military guns.

If it looks like a duck....walks like a duck...quacks like a duck......it isn't a replica....its a duck.
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#22 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 02:11 PM

QUOTE
is any of them thought of as a REPLICA???


hughlong,
Colt did not own the rights to the Thompson. Auto-Ordnance did. If Colt didn't find any problem with other manufacturers making knock-offs of their Colt Government .45, then there isn't a problem. But neither the Thompson family nor Maguire ever gave Numrich their permission, never mind their blessings, to call his guns Thompson's. When you use the word "support" (in the context of more peolpe buying firearms, therefore it is a good thing), you change the discussion from one of de jure to one of politics. That duck analogy makes for nice persiflage, but it hardly applies in a situation where replicas do indeed mimic their target. Does a copy of a Rolex watch look like a Rolex?.... does it tell time?....does it tick?....But is it indeed a Rolex?....You get the picture.

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#23 colt21a

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 05:00 PM

QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Apr 24 2004, 02:01 PM)
QUOTE
i have a replica samurai sword over my desk..........{you know why}i sold my original{1400 century} years ago for fairly big buck's......and replaced it with that........because nobody cared,and i did not want $5,000.00..........{value of sword}hard earned cash.................sitting over the desk to gaze at.....the cheepie did the job................


Ron,
The dictum is that "you" never confused the replica with the original even though they both seemed to serve the same aesthetic purpose for you.

yes arthur true:and i don't know too many collector's.......who have $10,000 to $20,000 samurai swords over the desk...........as prop's.......or $500.00 german helmets' of course there is the exception to every rule...............

as gun collectors go:
and true collector's never part with anything............dealer /collector's...........of course sell off, trade.barter and exchange items over the year's........

in my remaining year's i plan on selling everything off...........so the jackal's and vulture's.............do not present my widow................with that ultimate........"this is my best offer"and all its worth.........B.S.story


hopefully tho...........the whores of the gun world..........will have that happen to them...............gun rich,cash poor.....

wink!! way off topic i know but had to add the ditty......... take care,ron
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#24 gijive

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 05:25 PM

hughlong,

The anology to the Colt 1911 pistol isn't accurate in my opinion. The only reason the U.S. Governament contracted with Remington, Ithica, Union Swith & Signal, etc. was the demand for WWII production. None of the contractors you mentioned made the 1911 pistol between the wars. The only reason Savage made the Thompson prior to WWII was to fill orders from the countries already engaged in the war in Europe. Auto-Ordnance didn't just license any manufacturer that wanted to make the gun for commercial sales. It is well documented that no licensed Thompson submachine guns were made since production ended in 1944. Arthur is correct in his citations from the accepted researchers.

In other words, WWII production demands caused many manufacturer's to make guns at the request of the Government. This wasn't the case when Numrich bought the remaining assets in the 1950's and started production of newly made receivers in the late 1960s and '70s. The Auto-Ordnance trademark was never licensed to them and the guns they made were knock-offs of the originals.
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#25 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 06:20 PM

G.I. Jive,
Carefull! You might be accused of heresy. But so was Galileo, Copernicus, Ptolemy (even though he was confused on the earth and sun thing),and others who seek truth in the face of those in denial.

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#26 chitowngangster

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 06:40 PM

I think you guys are getting very picky.If it looks like a pig and squeals like i pig, then it must be a cow right?

If the guy digs shooting that model then so be it.Just be happy you are still able to shoot one.(Thank god)!Man i went through all that same bullshit when i had my harley.(My harley is more authentic than yours blah ,blah blah!

Hey to me they all are of the thompson family even though they are not exactly like the colts. They are cousins of the colt. Good enough!

I would rather shoot a replica or cousin of a tommy than any other real mcoy gun .(Except of the colt tommy itself). wink.gif

Edited by chitowngangster, 25 April 2004 - 06:44 PM.

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#27 LIONHART

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 07:28 PM

I would have to agree 100% with Arthur and GiJive on this one. Just my .02
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#28 TN.Frank

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 09:46 PM

Personally I'd keep an eye out for a good, used AO 27a1 or M1a1, then use the money you save to buy some mags and parts to fix it up. I picked up my 27a1 for $650 and put $375 into parts to make it more to my liking. That's still less then a new gun would have cost and It's fixed the way that I wanted it to be. Shop around, you'll find one at a gun show or on a firearms forum that you can pick up for half of what a new one would cost. Get it fixed up like you want it then put in for the SBR permit and you'll have a nice, custom semi that you can be proud to own. JMHO. blink.gif
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#29 Arthur Fliegenheimer

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 10:04 PM

QUOTE
But you know what? The $35 Asian electronic "replica" of the $4000 Rolex is superior in almost every way...slightly thicker, more durable, virtually indistinguishable appearance, but keeps PERFECT time, unlike the Rolex! So not all replicas are bad just because they are replicas.


Phil,
You keep confusing quality (as dubious as that may be in WH/Kahr versions), with simple honesty. As crazy as it may seem to you, some people actually expect that the merchandise they buy is indeed what the label says it is. I wonder how you would feel if you bought that $35 Asian replica for $4000, even if it did keep better time? The way that purveyors of knock-off watches keep out of trouble is that they change a letter in the brand name of the company they are ripping-off. Numrich never had a twinge of conscience to call his version the "Thimpson." This may be of negligible interest to you, but even though it is a tiny injustice in the grand scheme of things, it is still a bone of contention to those who notice little things like the theft of a person's reputation and honor. Even a "Thompson agnostic" must appreciate the injustice and imorality of the appropriation of Thompson's name and company to adorn firearms that neither he, his family, or any member of his company authorized. While it is perfectly natural for some gun enthusists to not see beyond their own muzzle flash, one would hope that during a lull in their lives they might consider that maybe there is more to their firearm than just steel, plastic and wood.

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#30 Grey Crow

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 10:35 PM

So basically what you are saying is that no one actually owns the Thompson name, trade marks, or AO name for that matter??

If so, then it would be legal for anyone with allot of spare cash to buy all the machining equipment and start producing more replica Thompson's, and Kahr couldn't do anything.

Then the new manufacturer could actually build a better gun. Perhaps even place a working knock off Lyman style site on it.

Then if you really want to be a "true" purist, the only true Thompson would be the ones manufactured by the original AO, once they got on their feet. Given the fact that Colt did a fantastic job making them, they are not original Thompson's..

Gee, this topic sure grew a life of it's own, from the original request as to if a Kahr M1A1 SBR would be a good idea... tongue.gif tongue.gif
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#31 427sohc

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 07:30 PM

we should all be happy that we are still able to BUY guns like this,if kerry and the rest of them get there way,we wont be able to,then we WILL have something to bitch about!
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#32 TAB

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 12:30 PM

If the Kahr acts up it can be fixed, either by Kahr or PK. I think they charge a bit more than they should, but so do others. Pot metal screws are expensive you know. So is CNC even though you skip the final fitting of parts because you'e got your tolerances down to an f.

Anyway, I'm happy with mine, I have had work done on it like Grey Crow, and that has made it more appreciable. To me. To hell with anyone else, its not their gun wink.gif
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#33 chitowngangster

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 05:09 PM

Yes indeed!You guys should appreciate whatever gun you have.I'd rather be shooting a Kahr or replica reel steel then picking my nose in Canada.F&^% laws. mad.gif
Anybody want to adopt me?


Mario
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#34 The1930sRust

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 06:30 PM

Chitown:

Bring those two coward US military deserters back with ya, and you can live in the basement room here. I'll even give you the combination to the safe!

CG
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#35 43FordGPW

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 08:02 PM

tongue.gif Well guys I bit the bullet and bought the weapon. After listening to this I need to get DRUNK and I don't even Drink. (just kidding)
I just wanted some opinions on the weapon and thought this would be the sight for it. Anyway thanks for the info and I'm thankful that I was able to buy one. God Bless America and 2nd Amed. Look forward to talking more about the guns.
My wife just roles her eyes. rolleyes.gif
Joe
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#36 The1930sRust

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 08:13 PM

Joe:

Congrats! Welcome to the club. Now, don't fret. You're not the first person who has had a post morphed by the tired rant about what constitutes a Thompson. Enjoy yours! Oh, and this IS the site for Thompson questions, they be old or new...

CG
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#37 Grey Crow

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 08:42 PM

Congrats. on the purchase.

LOL, first modification the mag catch! And get a bunch of GI mags.

That in itself, in many cases will cure feed problems. If you have any.

Keep it clean and oiled that also assists in feed problems.

You'll love it........ tongue.gif

My wife STILL has no idea how much I have invested in the 27 and original Thompson items.

Although I do maintain a spread sheet of values should I kiss off.
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#38 JimFromFL

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 08:48 PM

Don't forget to upload some pictures.
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#39 TommyFan

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 09:26 PM

Arthur,

I think the market supports you. otherwise, a Kahr SBR semi (rebuilt by PK-mine) would be worth the same.
I also have learner much from you and would consider you one of the best resources for information on the Thompson. BUT.....

The fact is, I cannot afford a FA Thompson, and if I bought one, would have to use it to shoot the divorce lawyer my wife would hire in order to prevent it from being sold to spite me. I would not be shooting it on auto at the range, so it would serve no useful purpose other than to inflate my ego while depleting my wallet.

I can get just as much of a thrill shooting mine and not worrying about my insurance co refusing to pay replacement value on a 60 year old firearm, so for those of use without means to join the purists, I say your assertions while valid, are just so much elitist BS.

Rangers Lead the Way!!
John


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#40 hawksnest

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 08:18 AM

TommyFan: I guess that makes me a quasi-elitist, since I am fortunate enough to own two full auto thompsons, neither of which is a Colt. ph34r.gif
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