ATF headache, need proof of C&R eligibility

[Dolphinvet]

As some of you on the board may be aware, I'm currently in pending status for an M1 Thompson, AOC manufacture, by NFA. The person I'm purchasing the gun from just received a letter that the gun was initially registered with the NFA in 1964, thus is 1 year short of 50 years for a C&R transfer directly to me. This is ridiculous. The gun was manufactured during WWII. How do I provide proof of this to the mental midgets that wrote this? On the right side of the receiver it says "Auto-Ordnance Corporation Bridgeport, Connecticut, U.S.A." On the left side of the receiver it says "Thompson Submachine Gun Caliber .45 M1 No. 194532

The serial number range must be listed somewhere to denote the approximate date of manufacture. I'm a bit pissed off and frustrated at this point. What should I do? I know there are experts on here that can help me.

 

Thanks,

 

Jim B. (Dolphinvet)

[ineverlistentoFM]

can't you just transfer it to a class III dealer in your state and then to you? it may cost another $200 stamp, but...then the gun could get to you.

[MG08]

go to the online version of the C&R list. You may have to google it, it used to be on the ATF website. Look up the gun, Have the seller send the reference information by page and line to the Examiner. They get a little lazy and do not all know what to look for. Should be simple to fix. I have had to do this a couple time.

Edited October 14, 2013 by MG08

[bug]

As some of you on the board may be aware, I'm currently in pending status for an M1 Thompson, AOC manufacture, by NFA. The person I'm purchasing the gun from just received a letter that the gun was initially registered with the NFA in 1964, thus is 1 year short of 50 years for a C&R transfer directly to me. This is ridiculous. The gun was manufactured during WWII. How do I provide proof of this to the mental midgets that wrote this? On the right side of the receiver it says "Auto-Ordnance Corporation Bridgeport, Connecticut, U.S.A." On the left side of the receiver it says "Thompson Submachine Gun Caliber .45 M1 No. 194532

The serial number range must be listed somewhere to denote the approximate date of manufacture. I'm a bit pissed off and frustrated at this point. What should I do? I know there are experts on here that can help me.

 

Thanks,

 

Jim B. (Dolphinvet)

 

I remember your thread and I thought that issue was cleared up. I heard a similar story at the creek but I'm not sure how that one ended. I'll try to find out. It seems to be all about considering "rewating" a dewat, the manufacturing of a new gun. Sad part is if they say that's how it is, it is. The C&R status should only be lost if the gun was destroyed and rewelded in 64. Wondering who is listed as the manufacturer on the paperwork???

 

Bob D

[Dolphinvet]

can't you just transfer it to a class III dealer in your state and then to you? it may cost another $200 stamp, but...then the gun could get to you.

I'm really not wanting to look at 2 to 3 more years at least to do this transfer. The gun is obviously older than 50 years. I don't believe the Bridgeport plant manufactured the gun past 1944. I'm sure there is some way to document this. I have a C&R license specifically to do collecting of 50+ year old weapons which makes any WWII gun eligible.

[Dolphinvet]

 

As some of you on the board may be aware, I'm currently in pending status for an M1 Thompson, AOC manufacture, by NFA. The person I'm purchasing the gun from just received a letter that the gun was initially registered with the NFA in 1964, thus is 1 year short of 50 years for a C&R transfer directly to me. This is ridiculous. The gun was manufactured during WWII. How do I provide proof of this to the mental midgets that wrote this? On the right side of the receiver it says "Auto-Ordnance Corporation Bridgeport, Connecticut, U.S.A." On the left side of the receiver it says "Thompson Submachine Gun Caliber .45 M1 No. 194532

The serial number range must be listed somewhere to denote the approximate date of manufacture. I'm a bit pissed off and frustrated at this point. What should I do? I know there are experts on here that can help me.

 

Thanks,

 

Jim B. (Dolphinvet)

 

I remember your thread and I thought that issue was cleared up. I heard a similar story at the creek but I'm not sure how that one ended. I'll try to find out. It seems to be all about considering "rewating" a dewat, the manufacturing of a new gun. Sad part is if they say that's how it is, it is. The C&R status should only be lost if the gun was destroyed and rewelded in 64. Wondering who is listed as the manufacturer on the paperwork???

 

Bob D

Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport Connecticut is listed as the manufacturer on the form 4. That in and of itself should be enough, but there should be some paperwork or listing somewhere for a serial number range for a manufacturing period that will satisfy these people. BTW, the issue that I had prior was with my 1921 Thompson. It's just ridiculous, they are trying their best NOT to transfer weapons anymore it appears.

[bug]

 

 

As some of you on the board may be aware, I'm currently in pending status for an M1 Thompson, AOC manufacture, by NFA. The person I'm purchasing the gun from just received a letter that the gun was initially registered with the NFA in 1964, thus is 1 year short of 50 years for a C&R transfer directly to me. This is ridiculous. The gun was manufactured during WWII. How do I provide proof of this to the mental midgets that wrote this? On the right side of the receiver it says "Auto-Ordnance Corporation Bridgeport, Connecticut, U.S.A." On the left side of the receiver it says "Thompson Submachine Gun Caliber .45 M1 No. 194532

The serial number range must be listed somewhere to denote the approximate date of manufacture. I'm a bit pissed off and frustrated at this point. What should I do? I know there are experts on here that can help me.

 

Thanks,

 

Jim B. (Dolphinvet)

 

I remember your thread and I thought that issue was cleared up. I heard a similar story at the creek but I'm not sure how that one ended. I'll try to find out. It seems to be all about considering "rewating" a dewat, the manufacturing of a new gun. Sad part is if they say that's how it is, it is. The C&R status should only be lost if the gun was destroyed and rewelded in 64. Wondering who is listed as the manufacturer on the paperwork???

 

Bob D

Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport Connecticut is listed as the manufacturer on the form 4. That in and of itself should be enough, but there should be some paperwork or listing somewhere for a serial number range for a manufacturing period that will satisfy these people. BTW, the issue that I had prior was with my 1921 Thompson. It's just ridiculous, they are trying their best NOT to transfer weapons anymore it appears.

 

My mistake. It was a thread started by 30sRust on June 14 that was remarkably similar to yours. Perhaps he will contact you.

Edited October 14, 2013 by bug

[TD.]

Board member The1930sRust went through this same problem a while back. Read the following thread to learn about his problem and the successful conclusion. After you study this Thread, I suggest you contact Rust via Private Message for more details. He may be able to give you a contact point of someone in the ATF who understands when Savage or Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport M1A1 Thompson production ended in 1944.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15510&hl=rust+m1+c&r

 

Good luck!

[Bob]

ATFE is going off the records for every transfer now. So if it entered the registry in 1964, that's where they start the clock.

 

Lots of stuff was registered pre 68 like stuff picked up by PD's and they registered them when the "found them" or got them from the government on a purchase order during the free stuff giveaways. Always a chance a GI brought it back and registered it too. Nice to see the original document with a FOIA request to see what's really up with it.

 

Could have also been a "rewat" that was never really a de-wat :-)

 

Good luck!

[Dolphinvet]

Board member The1930sRust went through this same problem a while back. Read the following thread to learn about his problem and the successful conclusion. After you study this Thread, I suggest you contact Rust via Private Message for more details. He may be able to give you a contact point of someone in the ATF who understands when Savage or Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport M1A1 Thompson production ended in 1944.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15510&hl=rust+m1+c&r

 

Good luck!

1930sRust's weapon was a REWAT but that ended up being a non-issue. This weapon is not a REWAT, but it's not original either as someone nickel plated it and put on a 1928 barrel. Now this shouldn't matter since the receiver was never cut and so on, and since Bridgeport ceased production of the gun in 1944, and also since the C&R book lists Thompsons built before 1945, I should be fine. With the bureaucratic mess out there though, you never know what they are going to accept. I don't have a history on the gun prior to 1964, but the owner who's transferring the gun to me is attempting to get everything he can for me at this time. It appears it was a GI gun that was brought back, then surrendered to a PD who took it and then registered it in 1964. ATF has no record of registration prior to 1964, but the rules read "manufactured", not "registered" to be on the C&R list as far as the 50 year rule goes. The big problem right now is the 30 day cancellation on the letter they sent dated October 2nd, and the fact nobody will answer the damn phone at ATF.

[RoscoeTurner]

They will not answer at NFA Branch because no one is there during the shutdown.

 

 

,,,,,,, and the fact nobody will answer the damn phone at ATF.

[Motorcar]

I called the Branch the other day and a man answered right away.."NFA, How can I help you"...apparently all he was doing is aswering the phone and said NO tranfers would handled during the shutdown.

[RoscoeTurner]

If they really were interested in saving money they could have put that much on a recording.

 

 

I called the Branch the other day and a man answered right away.."NFA, How can I help you"...apparently all he was doing is aswering the phone and said NO tranfers would handled during the shutdown.

[The1930sRust]

Dolphinvet. What is the latest on this? I've had my head in the stars lately. Not keeping up here. Perhaps I can help you? Rust

[Dolphinvet]

Dolphinvet. What is the latest on this? I've had my head in the stars lately. Not keeping up here. Perhaps I can help you? Rust

No idea right now. I'm going to call ATF tomorrow and find out. I have left a couple messages with the supervisor in charge of this transfer, but no return call yet. I know the guy that I purchased it from sent in pictures of the gun, along with additional paperwork of when it was obtained. Also they wanted my transferor to change the name of the gun from "M1 Thompson" to "M1". It's just ridiculous gymnastics on paperwork to make everything match up to what it was originally I suppose. I don't see how though they can deny me the gun, since their rules are what I'm following.The day will finally come I'm sure when I get the damn thing. I just hope it's before next summer. Sheesh.

[The1930sRust]

My Gawd. This is exactly what they told me..... I may be able to help. Where is The Lone Ranger when you need him? :-) R

[Dolphinvet]

Ok I spoke to Heather at ATF today. She told me what they have as information is strictly on the paperwork, and we both read from page 50 of the C&R book where it lists Thompsons produced from 1945 and earlier, and we both agreed that since the M1 was produced by only AOC and Savage arms, that it had to be in that era. She said the pictures will help a lot. She also told me that she recalled an incident almost exactly the same that happened just recently (probably yours Rust) so I believe this will be an issue that will be resolved before next week. On a side note, I still don't have my 1921 Thompson yet. The sequester has messed up the transfer times a lot.

[The Lone Ranger]

My Gawd. This is exactly what they told me..... I may be able to help. Where is The Lone Ranger when you need him? :-) R

 

Watching.... hoping it works itself out - which at least sounds promising.

[The Lone Ranger]

Any news on this?

[Dolphinvet]

Any news on this?

 

Interesting you should ask. I was informed by Heather Thompson (I think she's a specialist) that they are, or were, supposed to make a decision on this today. She was told that they were thinking that they would NOT honor the fact that the gun was made during WWII because their first record of it is in October of 1964. Now this is ridiculous. A C&R weapon has to meet the criteria of 50 years + for it to be listed as such. They have it listed as being first registered in 1964, and that's the date they want to use as its origin. Stupid really. It's a Bridgeport gun on the right side of the receiver, and there are armory stamps all over it. I really don't see the logic in their possible ruling. Heather does remember Rust's gun, and even said that it was approved and that it's possible that the supervisor may approve mine as being a C&R because of Rust's gun being in an almost exact scenario as my gun. Mr. Clutter is the supervisor on this issue and I tried to get ahold of Heather and find out the ruling today, and I got her voicemail and left a message. No answer to the situation as of yet. I'm in limbo. If the gun gets the go ahead for approval as a C&R, then I assume it may be another 90 days before it's mine. If not, then what? Will the application be returned and then I have to submit it again at the bottom of the pile to my local dealer, and then after it's approved to him after 9 months I have to wait another 9 months before I can finally get it?? This is insane. It would be an over 2 year transfer time if that was the case. That's a long time to have paid for the gun to finally have it so that I can then start the process of fixing it to an original M1 status. This is driving me crazy. I bought the gun 8 months ago, ATF is going to make me wait until I'm in an old folks home before they approve it.

[RoscoeTurner]

Sounds like someone slipped in some bad information and NFA Branch can't figure out how to delete it.

[The Lone Ranger]

Someway, somehow a seed has seemingly been planted that firearms cannot have existed before being registered. Good rule of thumb when determining post-68/86 restrictions but faulty for earlier guns.

[RoscoeTurner]

I wonder how they deal with German guns that have a date stamped on them.

[OldFalGuy]

Man that is simply ridiculous . Must be political cause they are playing games with the definition of C&R which says nada about the gun being registered for 50 years, simple be 50 years old.

I sold an MG42, a pure C&R gun marked 1944 the whole bit.

The paperwork list the manufacturer as ZZZ so the buyer has worried himself to death that it might not transfer C&R which is what he really wants.

When soldiers brought these foreign guns home no one knew who made it because of the german codes. We know NOW who was Steyr, Mauser etc.

Have seen original, NOT tube gun, MP-40's also with ZZZ paperwork.

Transfer are tough enough without politics slowing it down too.

[Dolphinvet]

Someway, somehow a seed has seemingly been planted that firearms cannot have existed before being registered. Good rule of thumb when determining post-68/86 restrictions but faulty for earlier guns.

 

Well this could end up being a real problem for not just me, but for virtually anyone attempting to do a C&R transfer. What really frustrates me on this issue is that I'm following their rules, as the gun is listed on page 50 of the C&R list, and they want to say it didn't exist before it was registered. If it didn't exist until then, it would be a form 1 gun for a build, if I am not mistaken. I need to get in touch with these people tomorrow and find out the ruling here.