NO 8398 on Subguns.com

[TD.]

Colt Thompson NO 8398 is listed for sale on Subguns.com:

 

http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=27453&query=retrieval

 

I am sure the bulged barrel is a distraction for potential buyers. One item I found very interesting was the Enfield Sling swivel on the butt stock:

 

 

NO 8398 has a documented history that is quite interesting. Of note, NO 3004 was owned by the same police department. NO 3004 is pictured in Roger Cox's book on page 7 and showcases a British proof mark. Both Colt's were acquired by Roger Cox, probably directly from the police department. Gordon Hergistad goes into great detail on these guns.

 

I suspect the butt stock with the Enfield sling swivel on NO 8398 was originally on NO 3004 when sold by Auto-Ordnance Corporation in 1934.

 

All comments welcome.

[buzz]

I like the description of the ruined barrel as a "slight barrel bulge".

 

Like your doctor telling you, "You have a slight case of bubonic plague."

 

The seller notes that he has a spare barrel, I suppose it's too much to hope for that it would be a Colt barrel.

Edited July 2, 2016 by buzz

[glen1005]

I am new to Thompsons. I would appreciate opinions and advice concerning the potential purchase of this gun. What would be a fair price in today's market?

[bob241]

Colt 6242 is listed on GB with a buy it now for $35,000.00, it also has a bulged barrel

 

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/573802277

[glen1005]

What is the good and bad to buying a Thompson was a bulged/damaged barrel? Is this a common issue with these guns? Do barrels have identification marks? How likely is it that Thompsons would have non original parts on them.

[buzz]

glen, that's a very broad question

 

Gun collector type guys worship condition and originality. Shooter type guys don't care.

 

So the answer to your question depends on the gun.

 

If I bulge the barrel on my arsenal rebuilt M1A1, I would just get a NOS barrel and I'd be out $200 or whatever. Nobody would know the difference or care at all. In fact, they might even like it better.

 

But if you bulge the barrel on a mint original Thompson, that would put a giant dent in the collector value of the gun.

 

 

Thompsons are kind of like 1911s, 95% of the military issue guns are going to have replacement parts and be refinished.

 

Police or privately owned guns will be a lot more original because they got lighter use and there was no giant arsenal rebuild program for them. You can find privately owned 1911s in the original box sometimes.

Edited August 2, 2016 by buzz

[glen1005]

Thanks so much. I appreciate the help. I am about 70% collector and 30% shooter. Does a Colt barrel have a serial number and/or markings that match it to a specific gun? Are high quality replacement barrels available? Is it possible to find a new nos Colt barrel?

[ron_brock]

Thanks so much. I appreciate the help. I am about 70% collector and 30% shooter. Does a Colt barrel have a serial number and/or markings that match it to a specific gun? Are high quality replacement barrels available? Is it possible to find a new nos Colt barrel?

Some early 3 digit (and less) guns have a serial number on the breech rim. Typically there is a mark that aligns barrel and receiver but the belief is that this was applied after installation. PK makes nice barrels that look like Colts. A NOS Colt barrel would be an extreme rarity (possibly Unobtanium, but may Be on is out there). Colt barrels on their own are tough to find (read expensive)! Keep in mind the sight or comp must be installed after barrel is tightened.

 

We had another thread recently about bulged barrels. I'm of the opinion that a Colt with original barrel, albeit bulged, is worth more than a Colt in identical condition with a replacement barrel (PK, GI, or otherwise).

 

Hope this helps and welcome to the board.

 

Ron

Edited August 3, 2016 by ron_brock

[huggytree]

When i was learning and searching for a Thompson i found most/all are mismatched.....i think its a very rare Thompson that is 100% original.....your paying for the degree that it is original and the condition......i bought a S1928 that was original finish and matching upper/lower, but replacement barrel and wood........i cant fix the barrel, but i did manage to find all 3 pieces of correct wood for it.....

 

you need to decide what level of original you want.....you can get a non numbers matching, refinished shooter or a all out 99% original colt (i dont know if the wood finish is ever original on any Colt?)....

 

i made offers on a Colt before deciding on mine.......how i looked at it was 100% original= $40,000+ and i deducted $$ for each thing that wasnt original....for you you know its the barrel...that instantly removes it from ever being at the highest level of collector.......if there is nothing else missing/wrong and the finish is good i dont think $35k is all that bad....if he has an original colt barrel that would be a big deal for me at that price

 

seems VERY slim pickin's for months on WW2 1928's.......all i see are Colts and A1's...

[glen1005]

I really appreciate all of your comments. It is great to get real live information from people who have had personal experiences with the same type issues. Thanks for all your help. I really enjoy this forum. I have learned tons in a very short time period!

[buzz]

I think that a lot of collectors get too obsessed on the "factory original" aspect of gun collecting.

 

The truth is that military guns get used pretty hard and after 10 years they end up getting refinished and are full of replacement parts.

 

That's part of the actual service history of the gun, so why is that so awful?

 

Obviously, a rebuilt gun is not as valuable as a mint factory original gun, and you should pay accordingly.

 

 

I used to be a hardcore Garand collector, and to put it nicely, the Garand collecting community has gone completely nuts. Those guys have basically zero respect for the guns, they will take original parts off a gun an replace them with the wrong parts, because the collector guru books are wrong.

 

I just don't see the point of building a fake "original" gun that's made of scrap parts and fake parts and conforms to a collector guide that's full of errors.

 

 

From the standpoint of being an owner, an arsenal rebuilt gun is preferable in some ways. A lot of them are in more or less new condition and they can be shot without worry about spoiling the value or damaging the parts.

[Merry Ploughboy]

Here's the address to the fairly recent discussion with respect to barrels (Started September 20, 2015):

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18285&hl=%2Bbarrel+%2Brelined

 

Best of luck with whatever yuo decide to pursue.

[huggytree]

if you just want a shooter you can just buy a reweld or a Hurley(and put WW2 internals in it)

 

 

you need to decide what you want and what level of $$ your at...

 

i chose the $24-27k range....i wanted a WW2 1928 bridgeport or a police 1928......a fellow member got a all original WW2 savage 1928 for like $24k.......i have not seen before or after a # matching/original finish ww2 gun....but ive only been around for 10 months

 

i played with $32k Colts...but they were all mismatch guns needing $15k just to bring them back to 90-99% correct and no one ever wants to bargain on price for FA's...take it or leave it

 

There is always a cheap reweld on GB.....Frank has had one listed for weeks/months

Edited August 4, 2016 by huggytree

[buzz]

From what I've seen of rewelds, I would not buy one, period.

 

The Thompson is not a gun like an UZI where bolt rattles back and forth with giant clearances and you can buy an unused IMI grip assembly for $75.

 

The Thompson is precision machined, so unless the reweld was jigged up absolutely perfect it's going to have critical dimensional errors.

 

West Hurleys are also not a good option at this time because the prices are too high. Paying $18k or more for a gun that needs machine work and part replacements is not a good option compared to buying a $25k USGI gun.

 

I think USGI Thompsons are the best overall value at this point in time.

 

That's my take on it, YMMV.

Edited August 8, 2016 by buzz

[huggytree]

the question is is it worth $32k for a bulged barrel colt vs a $25k GI gun..........that $7k difference buys you a Mac or a Stemple.....

 

in 10 years will the colt be worth $7k more still or will it be worth $20k more....investment wise will the colt be the better choice.......it will always be a shooter grade, but it will also always be a Colt

[Z3BigDaddy]

I have seen and handled this gun. I do have a question on the compensator as it is unmarked. I thought that was only on very early guns. Looks like it is SPF. Don't know if that is my person or another. Not really a bad gun other than the obvious. But the seller understands that and the price reflects it One of the big pluses on it, is the fact is has the correct bolt in it.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Z3BigDaddy

[aut-ord-co]

Some things not mentioned thus far: Roger Cox listed this gun in his December 30, 1974 mail out. He mentions their ( 3004, 8398 and 10775) "being used in the labor strikes of Sept 1934 and had a great influence on the passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934. ...8398 excellent with wear on compensator. ...See Helmer, The Gun That Made the Twenties Roar, p. 146-7"

 

Significantly, Cox lists 8398 at $6500. This is three times the asking prices of the ten guns he lists as Mint for $2100 each. He also lists a Mint 1927AC (4422) for $5000; an East Chicago PD gun (3170) for $2750; an East Liverpool, OH PD gun (14033) for $2750 (PBF capture gun).

 

Obviously Roger thought the provenance of these West Point guns had increased value. No mention of the bulged barrel, if it existed at this time.

 

3004 was listed at $7000 and 10775 was listed at $6500.

[Z3BigDaddy]

The damage to the barrel occurred while in possession of the current owner. A squib load stuck and the rest is history. I still think for the price this is a good investment. The extra barrel is not a Colt's barrel but the current owner paid a handsome sum for it. He purchased it from good Ole J C Earl.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Z3BigDaddy

[Bob]

FYI, I have a 1928 Savage that I rented for about 10 years. Bought it with a really large ring and it ran fine for thousands of rounds. Recently quit renting and had a new Russian tube installed purely for cosmetic reasons. New tube runs just like the old barrel.

[Dolphinvet]

From what I've seen of rewelds, I would not buy one, period.

 

The Thompson is not a gun like an UZI where bolt rattles back and forth with giant clearances and you can buy an unused IMI grip assembly for $75.

 

The Thompson is precision machined, so unless the reweld was jigged up absolutely perfect it's going to have critical dimensional errors.

 

West Hurleys are also not a good option at this time because the prices are too high. Paying $18k or more for a gun that needs machine work and part replacements is not a good option compared to buying a $25k USGI gun.

 

I think USGI Thompsons are the best overall value at this point in time.

 

That's my take on it, YMMV.

I would tend to disagree on the reweld issue. There are a lot of very excellent machinists out there that can get dimensions down to the 0.0001" range and have the gun exact. I have a 1928A1 that's a reweld that was a dewat and mangled horribly. Now it's excellent. It may not take tens of thousands of rounds of ammo before a crack appears, but if the gun works, I don't see the issue.