Military World War 2 Thompson Value Question

[Grease Gunner]

Hello All:

I am a newbie to this forum and look forward to learning as much as I can,

I have always admired Thompsons and seeing the prices rise, I have decided to sell off handguns and buy

a couple of them.

 

The classic look of the M1a1 is so appealing I would love to own a US Property Marked One not

a West Hurley recreation. What Price range do they sell in and are they like handguns that a purchaser should

avoid refinished ones ? With Smith and Wessons, refinishing kills the values

 

Before the M1 and M1a1s were issued werent there many 1928a1s put into service?
I found a picture of a 1928 with the military front sight and a horizontal foregrip on wikipedia.

Are these hard to find and again what price range do they travel in?

 

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/bsOadM.jpg

 

So far, all I look at is gunbroker and dont really know which dealers are reputable and which ones have selections to choose from.

 

Any and all input will be greatly appreciated

 

Thank you.

[ppgcowboy]

All of your answers as far as prices can be found here.

 

http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/html/subguns.html

Edited October 8, 2016 by ppgcowboy

[dalbert]

Haris357,

 

Welcome to the board!

 

My advice is to go with a reputable dealer who has the item in stock, in their inventory. I can recommend several, though the dealer who I believe has the most consistent inventory, and with whom you will have complete "peace of mind" is Ruben Mendiola. Here is his website link:

 

http://www.dealernfa.com

 

Here is one he has in stock currently.

 

http://dealernfa.com/shop/thompson-m1-cr-bridgeport-156497/

 

Most M1/M1A1's will have been arsenal refinished in the military. Some have also been refinished since then. The main thing to look for, when the gun has been recently refinished, is that the gun is not a rewat. (Previously destroyed, and then rewelded and refinished)

 

David Albert

[Big Al]

That gun in the picture on Wikipedia isn't a real Thompson, but a replica made by the Model Gun Company of Japan, I believe some time in the '70s (someone correct me on the date if I am wrong). The closest analog in a real Thompson of that configuration would be the guns ordered by Sweden, who gave them the designation Kulsprutepistol (literally bullet squirting pistol, their equivalent term for machine pistol) m/40. Those were leftover Colt guns that were equipped with ring front sights (the standard blade front sight before the Cutts compensator was developed), a horizontal foregrip, and sling swivels.

[Grease Gunner]

David,

I called Mr Mendiola and found him both very informative and personable. I am glad to make his contact. He suggested that I get a pre may sample since I have a SOT, That may be what I will do considering the prices of the ones fully transferable. Anyway, I am still struggling in my search. Its so more more than trying to find a handgun which you can acquire quickly , cheaply and if it doesnt suit you, you can move it on and get something else,

Not so in the world of NFA!!

thanks to all

 

Haris

[Black River Militaria CII]

>The main thing to look for, when the gun has been recently refinished, is that the gun is not a rewat. (Previously destroyed, and then rewelded and refinished)<

 

A correction is needed here, if I may. The above contains an inaccurate identification of a "rewat". A "rewat" is a contraction of a term that is derived from another contraction, "dewat". A dewat is a DEactivated WAr Trophy. A rewat is a REactiavted War Trophy. The first term, DEWAT, is an MG that has been rendered inoperable to specifications developed by the war department and the ATTU, the agency that regulated MGs prior to and after WWII until it became ATF. Broadly, the procedure required welding closed the breech of the gun and welding the barrel to the receiver. Once DEWATed, the MG was no longer longer controlled by the Treasury Department as a firearm and there were no restrictions on its possession or sale. The GCA '68 required the registratiion of all MGs that had complete receivers, which included the MGs that had been DEWATed. Many inoperable MGs were registered prior to the end of the '68 Amnesty, with the result that at any time in the future, the inoperable MGs could be returned to live function, thus the term "rewat". Many, many of the military Thompsons are rewats, and generally the work of reactivating them is of excellent quality. They are original, factory guns that have had the barrels restored or replaced, weld scars removed, and reparkerized. These are excellent and worthy collector guns and command prices close to guns that were not DEWATed and reactivated. There are still many privately owned registered DEWAT Thompsons in the US. I reactivate 3 to 5 of these DEWATS every year. Maybe more this year!

An MG that has been "previously destroyed, and then rewelded and refinished" is NOT a "rewat". MGs that remained unregistered post the end of the '68 Amnesty were allowed to be registered for private possession if the following procedure was followed: the receiver was required to be "destroyed" of "demilitarized". A common procedure was to sawcut it in half which rendered the firearm a "non-gun" and no longer subject to registration. It was the first form of an MG "kit" with which most are familiar. Once cut in half, the receiver could then be welded back together, refinished and assembled into a live firearm. Once the MG was completed it could be registered for sale to an individual with the usual transfer protocols. These MGs are " remanufactured" guns and generally have significantly lower values than MGs that still have original, factory receivers, with exceptions for rare and unusual MGs that have been remanufactured. There are far fewer registered "remanufactured" military Thonpsons than "reactivated" examples, and they will bring significantly less in price.

A minor note. A remanufactured MG is not a "reweld", since it was never welded in the first place. The term is popular but misleading. Many registered remanufactured MGs have receivers that were cut in half and then welded back together, but also, many MGs that were remanufactured have newly made receivers or controlled parts, so welding was only one manner of rebuilding a non-gun MG into a live MG that could be registered between Dec. 2, 1968 and May 19, 1986. There were several makers, for instance, of excellent quality M1 Thompson receivers that were assembled into live, registered MGs.

Sorry for the long ramble, which is quite general, but since the original post was by a person new to MGs and looking for information, it seemed appropriate to correct the misleading info to further his education in the fine, but perilous and tricky world of MG collecting. Hope this helps.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Black River Militaria CII

[reconbob]

If you say a gun is a reweld everybody knows what that means. I know many

people go down the road of "it can't be a reweld if it was never welded in the first

place" but this is trivial.

Back in the 1970s many thousands of torched M1 Garand receivers were welded back

together, machined (or I guess it would be safe to say remachined) and assembled into

rifles and sold as "rewelds". Perhaps at the time it was to describe that they were

REmanufactured by WELDing. Throughout the industry these were described as

rewelds. I do not recall any inquisition that this was incorrect because

they had never been welded to begin with. For over 30 years I never heard the "can't be a reweld

because it was never previously welded" argument but within the last 5-10 years it seems

to have become in vogue to make it.

 

Bob

[Black River Militaria CII]

Yes, and I did note that it is a minor point, deliberately, for a "newby" as it helps to clarify what is what. Again the original poster was looking to learn. I also understand the REmanufactured by WELDing term and use it as long as others understand what it means. Too many people in this game or coming into it believe that DEWATS are "rewelded" MGs, a confusion that crosses my path quite often with customers looking to buy. When I got into the MG game, many, many years ago, in the mid 1950s, few who had experience and information that I could find to call or write were very helpful in explaining things to me about which I had questions. I was kid and easily intimidated by being refused or deliberately misinformed and will not make that mistake with the info that I have.

I am a fan of correct definitions, in any case, and only making the point, that's all. There's lots of misinformation as well as erroneous use of terms passed around in the MG collecting world that is just plain wrong and most people try to correct it as time goes by. I point it out when I feel it is necessary out of respect for those learning and so that we are all on the same page.

Sorry if you find my explanation is objectionable to you, but the devil is in the details. This board is known for its "angels on the head of a pin" discourses about Thompsons, so my point is hardly that or remotely close in attitude of an inquisition. FWIW

[dalbert]

>The main thing to look for, when the gun has been recently refinished, is that the gun is not a rewat. (Previously destroyed, and then rewelded and refinished)

 

A correction is needed here, if I may. The above contains an inaccurate identification of a "rewat". A "rewat" is a contraction of a term that is derived from another contraction, "dewat". A dewat is a DEactivated WAr Trophy. A rewat is a REactiavted War Trophy. The first term, DEWAT, is an MG that has been rendered inoperable to specifications developed by the war department and the ATTU, the agency that regulated MGs prior to and after WWII until it became ATF. Broadly, the procedure required welding closed the breech of the gun and welding the barrel to the receiver. Once DEWATed, the MG was no longer longer controlled by the Treasury Department as a firearm and there were no restrictions on its possession or sale. The GCA '68 required the registratiion of all MGs that had complete receivers, which included the MGs that had been DEWATed. Many inoperable MGs were registered prior to the end of the '68 Amnesty, with the result that at any time in the future, the inoperable MGs could be returned to live function, thus the term "rewat". Many, many of the military Thompsons are rewats, and generally the work of reactivating them is of excellent quality. They are original, factory guns that have had the barrels restored or replaced, weld scars removed, and reparkerized. These are excellent and worthy collector guns and command prices close to guns that were not DEWATed and reactivated. There are still many privately owned registered DEWAT Thompsons in the US. I reactivate 3 to 5 of these DEWATS every year. Maybe more this year!

An MG that has been "previously destroyed, and then rewelded and refinished" is NOT a "rewat". MGs that remained unregistered post the end of the '68 Amnesty were allowed to be registered for private possession if the following procedure was followed: the receiver was required to be "destroyed" of "demilitarized". A common procedure was to sawcut it in half which rendered the firearm a "non-gun" and no longer subject to registration. It was the first form of an MG "kit" with which most are familiar. Once cut in half, the receiver could then be welded back together, refinished and assembled into a live firearm. Once the MG was completed it could be registered for sale to an individual with the usual transfer protocols. These MGs are " remanufactured" guns and generally have significantly lower values than MGs that still have original, factory receivers, with exceptions for rare and unusual MGs that have been remanufactured. There are far fewer registered "remanufactured" military Thonpsons than "reactivated" examples, and they will bring significantly less in price.

A minor note. A remanufactured MG is not a "reweld", since it was never welded in the first place. The term is popular but misleading. Many registered remanufactured MGs have receivers that were cut in half and then welded back together, but also, many MGs that were remanufactured have newly made receivers or controlled parts, so welding was only one manner of rebuilding a non-gun MG into a live MG that could be registered between Dec. 2, 1968 and May 19, 1986. There were several makers, for instance, of excellent quality M1 Thompson receivers that were assembled into live, registered MGs.

Sorry for the long ramble, which is quite general, but since the original post was by a person new to MGs and looking for information, it seemed appropriate to correct the misleading info to further his education in the fine, but perilous and tricky world of MG collecting. Hope this helps.

 

I used the term "rewat" casually in my original post, and I was thinking of a cut-up receiver that had been welded together. However, a rewat can also involve having to weld the receiver to repair the deactivation, and make it functional again. You are correct as to the origin of the term, and the dates involved with GCA '68 and Hughes Amendment '86.

 

I agree with Reconbob on the use of the term "reweld."

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[giantpanda4]

But back to the price talk... it is really bugging me.

 

Can someone explain the numbers in the charts linked in the above post?

Where do they come from?

I guess they prices are some sort of a running average...??

I am trying to get where the numbers come from because they tell a very different story than my casual perusal of the market as I know it.

If you look at the charts "They" say:

A 1921/1928 Overstamp is selling for $38K is price on the decline

A 1921 is on a steep price decline and selling just under $44K

An M1 and M1A1 is on a steep incline and selling for $26.5K

An M1 (only??) is at $25K and increasing too.

A 1928 is selling only for $24K and steeply declining

A West Hurley sells for $17K and slowly declining.

 

What does that mean? Below are my general statements, there will always be exceptions. Like perceived rare guns sold at the big auction houses.

 

But - You cannot buy a Westie under $18K today, unless you are lucky. The market shows several at $19-20K right now. Frank has on GB being bid to $16.5K right now - watch what it goes or.

An "M1" vs. An "M1 and M1A1"? What does that mean? M1s and M1A1s are selling at $22 - $24K now. Not that much difference between M1s and M1A1s, maybe $500 max.

1928 are only $24K? Less than am M1? No way. The 1928s always were a $2-4K premium over the M1 series guns.

And who heard of Overstamps being less valuable than a regular 1921? Not me. The Overstamps are indeed rarer, as they are only 20% of the original 15,000 guns and 1921s are 80%.

I see Colt 1921s at $32 to $35, Overstamps should bring a couple thou more.

 

Inclining prices vs. declining prices?

Why is the market doing different things for different but very similar guns? I think all Thompsons are doing the same thing and steadily increasing, unlike the trends shown here.

 

I expect a lot of comments here. Hopefully we can understand the market better ourselves so when we show a graph to a newbie it makes sense to all of us.

 

And I am always in the market for say 20-40 Smiths (all stainless?) when they hit the market!

[ppgcowboy]

I think where the numbers come from are from reported sales of guns over time intervals. It then reports the high and low sales and the graph line is the average. What is not represented is the quality of the gun sold which can vary greatly. I am going to say that auction purchases are feeding frenzies and drive the price up.

[buzz]

Those price guides are pretty rough. They are marginally useful for very general pricing

 

For realistic prices, look at Rueben's website, his prices are always about on par with the real high end gunbroker auctions.

 

Completed auctions on gunbroker are also useful to get a feel for pricing.

 

Try this link also:

 

http://www.miniuzi.com/uzifinder.php

 

 

 

M1s and M1A1s have jumped way up in price recently and are presently priced about on par with 28A1s.

 

That's been going on for at least 8 or 9 months now.

 

It's like everyone finally got the word that the M1/M1A1s are a fantastic gun and an ideal WWII collectable.

[buzz]

By the way, having the US PROPERTY mark on the gun is not important. Some WWII guns are marked that way, some are not. There's no real difference in value.

 

Original WWII M1/M1A1 Thompsons will be marked on the bottom with an S or AOC to indicate the maker. Right in front of the mag well on the frame.

 

On the other hand, if a gun is a west hurley, it will say "WEST HURLEY" on the side.

If the gun has an original WWII arsenal refinish, it will be a grey park and it will typically have a greenish/brown discoloration caused by a varnish of old gun oil, hand grease and dust.

 

Also, you should be able to see the tool marks on the receiver, and the engraving should be pretty sharp.

 

Same deal as with Garands, an old arsenal refinish job looks different than a new refinish job.

Edited October 10, 2016 by buzz

[huggytree]

Im not sure if Ruben has sold a Thompson in 6+ months....maybe longer...the last one he sold i can remember is the Early Savage for $26k......his colts have been there forever and his $28k M1s almost as long

 

there have been tons of Colts for sale over the past few months...there arent many people with $30-$50k out there...so with over supply and low demand that isnt going to help value...the colts always do seem to sell eventually....but not the $45k ones

 

i have seen very few 1928's (non colt) for sale.......when i was searching it was hard to find and i think it went 4-6 months w/o one....

 

values can be all over the place because of condition....most are mismatch parts to some degree, some arent pretty......i can only remember 1 WW2 Savage 1928 since ive been around here (10 months) that appeared to be original and correct....

 

i do not keep track of m1a1's as they arent my thing...but i do see them come up more frequently lately...with higher and higher asking prices....and typically not getting them

 

for the graph....i dont know if enough of these guns come through to give an accurate snap shot in time...you may need to look at years vs months.......as for the Colts it may be more correct because there seems to be 2-4 a month lately

 

my uneducated opinion on prices from what ive seen is m1a1's are $24k (but asking $27k)....Colts are $35k-$40k (but asking $40-45k)

 

1928S & Bridgeports were $25k for a decent one when i was looking 9 months ago......really havent seen any come up enough to know where they are on price now

 

WH's are $18-20k....seems like they are going up over all and selling when a nice one comes up....i looked at a NIB one and it got sold for $20k before i could make the offer

Edited October 11, 2016 by huggytree

[ppgcowboy]

What is also not being referenced in there are the peripherals that come along with the gun. I am sure the prices do not represent package sales. The link is a starting point to either scare off or to let a potential buyer know just what they are getting into. Those prices are a good starting point to begin ones research.

[DZelenka]

What is also not being referenced in there are the peripherals that come along with the gun. I am sure the prices do not represent package sales. The link is a starting point to either scare off or to let a potential buyer know just what they are getting into. Those prices are a good starting point to begin ones research.

Good point. I looked at a mostly correct, refinished MP40 about 6 months ago that ended up selling for $20,000. I thought that was about $5,000 high for the gun. However, it came with 16 magazines, 2 or 3 complete bolt/recoil spring assemblies, original loader, sling, mag pouches and assorted small parts. At today's gunbroker prices, the "extras" are worth at least $3,000, possibly a bit more. So, the gun actually went for around $17,000. That still seems highish for a mostly correct, refinished C&R MP40 but not crazy. The same guy got $25,000 for a refinished Savage 1928A1 but it had LOTS of extras, including several WWII drums. Once again, if you were to take extras into account, the buyer got a good deal.

[Grease Gunner]

Here are some recent auction prices realized including 15% Buyers Premium at Rock Island Sept 2016

 

M1a1 Thompson with mismatched trigger housing group number $29,750

M2 Inland 18515

M2 postal Meter Converted 9257

Reising Model 50 7935

 

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/uQ3U7i.jpg

[buzz]

I just went to gunbroker and looked at the current and completed auctions.

 

I found no transferrable M1 or M1A1 sales in the gunbroker records (going back about 3 months) and no current transferrable M1/M1A1s for sale

 

I did see a bunch of WH 28s bid to over $20k

 

And I saw a real nice PA state police 21 that bid up to $42,000 and did not reach the reserve.

 

 

If there is a glut of Thompsons for sale, with no buyers, it's news to me.

 

Looks to me like a very thin supply and a lot of people bidding their ass off on west hurleys.

 

 

People have been saying that prices are topped out for as long as I can remember, even back when NIB M16s were $5000

Edited October 12, 2016 by buzz

[buzz]

There are hardly any WWII Thompsons for sale right now. The one on reuben's site is the only one I could find.

 

The NFA market is a lot smaller than people think.

[darrylta]

I wonder what is the value of a PK'd M1 WHurley in M1A1 garb now a days? I have a fresh one that I'm thinking of selling.

I'll be asking 24k for it. After PK's rework, it is as reliable and durable as a fresh WWII gun, just doesn't have the

historical bent. I took it to range a week ago, it runs like a swiss watch. I'll most likely post it for sale at the Sturm &

GBroker sites.

Darryl

 

 

[wv1928]

I don't know where you live but if you are close to Va. I have a friend in Purceville named Dale Thompson and he has several in stock. His web site is Purcell's Guns.com. He is a real gun nut. He has a good many NFA guns in stock. He is also on Face Book a lot. Hope this helps you out. Good luck in your search. Charlie.....