Looking for advice on this M1A1

[buzz]

There are no shortage of Thompsons for sale. There were a number for sale at the creek (more than any other MG type there) and a number coming up at auctions. Granted some are west hurley's, but I'm not going to discriminate since I started with one of those and it was a fine shooter, never a hiccup or broken part.

 

The epic fail of the Thompson was in keeping the square vs. going round. Tough to cut costs and production time when you are milling away 75% of your starting material vs. shearing off a tube section. The Germans fixed the stock, but gave up on the rest.

 

 

There are always west hurleys for sale. Sometimes there will be more than a dozen for sale on gunbroker alone.

 

But WWII guns are pretty hard to find. Sometimes there are NONE for sale at all.

 

If you have a WWII gun, you might want to hang on to it. It seems like the market is drying up.

[buzz]

The M1 was completely overbuilt when it was developed. When the rest of the world was switching to stampings, tubing and welding, Savage was hanging onto costly machine billet steel. The goal of this design was to drive out cost as much as possible. There are lots of fancy terms for this we still use today. Most people are offended by low cost so we think of feel good terms like optimized engineered refined weight reducing best cost etc etc.

 

Just as good means they were accepted/adopted by military contract. They met all the requirements and were significantly less expensive. The military was looking for cost effective weapons that get the job done. Over 4 million Stens were made, over half a million M3s. Both were double stack, single feed and served into the 1960s and beyond. Even the beloved Uzi kept that turd design.

 

I believe the troops also hated the M16 when it came out and wanted to keep M14s. I would say The Armalite design has done ok for itself despite the initial reactions.

 

Dont get me wrong. I too like the M1, however there are other WWII sub guns that I would much rather carry all day long. It was a cost reduced version of the original design, however still far too expensive which lead to the program to replace it. The M2 switched to a tube design gun.

 

I always had the same feelings about the Thompson until we did the NRA display that detailed the development of the sub machine gun. Having the ability to view the entire evolution from 1919 to present day side by side, combined with my product development background, has given me a different appreciation for arms development.

 

Ron

 

 

The UZI mag is a double stack, double feed design. Not a single feed. It's an outstanding mag that works extremely well.

 

It's truly rare to find a military contract UZI mag that doesn't run well. Even the rusty ones run good.

 

 

The single feed design is flawed because the cartridges are pressed very tightly into a funnel and they must slide along the funnel as they advance under pressure.

 

So any grit on the funnel can cause a stoppage.

 

Also, the high force of the cartridges on the funnel tends to spread the funnel open, especially if the magazine is left full when stored. But the funnel needs a precise 8 degree angle to run properly.

 

So sten mag owners end up tapping the feed lips with a hammer to bring them back to spec.

 

It's a real bad design.

 

 

Note that all of the smg magazines that are regarded as having excellent reliability are DS/DF designs. Like the UZI mag and the legendary Walther MPK.

 

 

As far as cost goes, the comparative costs are:

M1 Garand Rifle: $83 (1942) / $31 (1945)

 

Thompson SMG: $209 (In 1939) / $70 (in 1942) / $45 (In 1945)

 

M1 Carbine: $45 (1942)

 

$45 in 1945 is about $609 in today's money.

 

That's on par with what the army is paying for M16A2, about $800.

 

The m1A1 cost about 2 times as much as the MP40 ($24) and about 4 times as much as the sten ($11).

 

The M3 greaser cost about $20, so about 1/2 of the M1A1.

[buzz]

I'm going over to the MP40 forum you guys argue too much here...ONLY KIDDING!!!

 

It's not an argument, it's a "spirited discussion".

 

 

We gun collectors like to parse and bicker over little tiny nuances but those nuances seem to not count for much in service.

 

If you went back in time and had the germans and americans swap their P38s and 1911s, would it have made any practical difference?

 

So when you see the 100,000th "1911 vs P38" article or video, what does it amount to? It's just something for gun collectors to bicker over.

 

 

Another source of argument is when a lot of guys will offer very firm, emphatic opinions, but the opinion is really just some factoid that they heard from some bubba.

 

Like for example, some Garand collector will say that the Thompson is as "heavy as a box of rocks".

 

The Thompson pulled his trembling arms out of the shoulder sockets but his beloved Garand is the perfect weight.

 

And then the same guy will say the Suomi K31 was the "best smg design in WWII" (an 11 lb gun that was in short supply because it took too long to manufacture).

 

 

Keeps these gun forums lively.

Edited October 18, 2017 by buzz

[buzz]

So what was this thread about?

[ron_brock]

You are correct Buzz, had a brain fart in the Uzi mag. Should have pulled one out or realized my speed loader would not facilitate single feed.

 

All discussion in fun. If we were to get argumentative, wed have to move over to a Carbine or Garand forum.

 

Unfortunately, user pleasure is not what determines what is purchased and issued. Price and meeting requirements is what determines this.

 

Ron

[Paladin601]

Just save your money and get a PPS43...it will outshoot the Thompson any day of the week! Just kidding. While I do like the Thompsons and they are a very collectible and historic gun.. as Ron said they were very outdated by the time WWII came around. There is no doubt they were extremely well built and worked well, they do have a lot of shortcomings when compared to the rivals of the WWII time period. I personally find the gun very top heavy when shouldered. The mag changes are also sort of a pain to do quickly. I favor the guns with a magwell such as the MP40, PPS43, Beretta 38A's etc. they reload much quicker. The Thompson also takes a lot more practice to keep on target compared to many other subguns of the period. They are also dirt sensitive due to the tight tolerances in the receiver. The Thompson mags also are not very durable and can be dented pretty easily. I think the best magazines of the war had to be either the Beretta mags or the PPS43 mags. Very durable and work great.

Its amazing how the prices on all the Thompsons keep rising and it shows they will be a great collectible for a long time. Even people you meet who know very little about guns can usually tell you what a Thompson is when you show them. All the old subguns are cool in their own way. Thompsongunner

Many say the Suomi KP 31 is the best, and it uses the cheaper 9mm. But, I like the Thompson for the "Gangster Look"

 

[Adg105200]

Ideally you want one of everything lol

 

Andrew

[Petroleum 1]

Its ok guys there isn't anyone who likes to bicker more than me but I don't know enough yet to get in on the fun!! but watch out cuz I am soaking up all of this new knowledge

[Paladin601]

Its ok guys there isn't anyone who likes to bicker more than me but I don't know enough yet to get in on the fun!! but watch out cuz I am soaking up all of this new knowledge

I don't think so, I know i like to bicker more than you

[huggytree]

There are no shortage of Thompsons for sale. There were a number for sale at the creek (more than any other MG type there) and a number coming up at auctions. Granted some are west hurley's, but I'm not going to discriminate since I started with one of those and it was a fine shooter, never a hiccup or broken part.

 

The epic fail of the Thompson was in keeping the square vs. going round. Tough to cut costs and production time when you are milling away 75% of your starting material vs. shearing off a tube section. The Germans fixed the stock, but gave up on the rest.

most dont go to the creek and show me the auctions? are you talking Julias?

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

I agree with Andrew..I want one of each! That way I can do a very thorough test to see which is best. Really its an argument that will never be put to rest and it is all in fun. It is a personal preference more than anything. When I go out with some of my subguns and let someone new shoot them, they always like the MP38 the best as it probably is the most pleasant to shoot. The Thompson is the one that everyone likes the look of the most though and is the most recognized.

[av8tr]

Ideally you want one of everything lol

 

Andrew

Amen. Here endeth the lesson.

[Petroleum 1]

Here are a few 1928s posted online with a variety of different prices.


http://www.gunbroker.com/item/705310115


http://www.gunbroker.com/item/709160647



http://www.gunbroker.com/item/709748212


https://machineguncentral.com/ViewDetails.aspx?p=307--0e2b2296-9e28-438b-8f88-572207a70bc2


Sent from my iPhone

Edited October 19, 2017 by Petroleum 1

[johnsonlmg41]

Nice M1A1 at garner auctions 9/25 sold at 17K, also a couple WH guns sold for less in the same auction WH1928 $15,250, M11/9 $5250. Yes there are some coming up at Julias and I'm sure RIA in Dec. at least 2 in the brochure, colts though so far. No shortage predicted and we are awaiting some more boomers to hit room temp to turn loose some more. Even mine will be for sale at some point?

[huggytree]

colt, WH,WH,WH

 

no WW2 1928's

 

if you can afford a Colt they seem to come up monthly when they used to be more rare to come up......now the 1928 a1's dont come up anymore

[buzz]

Here are a few 1928s posted online with a variety of different prices.

 

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/705310115

 

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/709160647

 

 

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/709748212

 

 

https://machineguncentral.com/ViewDetails.aspx?p=307--0e2b2296-9e28-438b-8f88-572207a70bc2

 

 

Sent from my iPhone

 

 

One Colt overstamp and three west hurleys.

 

There is almost always a pile of west hurleys for sale, usually 28s. There have been times where there more than a dozen for sale on gunbroker at one time.

[buzz]

Nice M1A1 at garner auctions 9/25 sold at 17K, also a couple WH guns sold for less in the same auction WH1928 $15,250, M11/9 $5250. Yes there are some coming up at Julias and I'm sure RIA in Dec. at least 2 in the brochure, colts though so far. No shortage predicted and we are awaiting some more boomers to hit room temp to turn loose some more. Even mine will be for sale at some point?

 

 

I disagree with your hypothesis that nice M1A1s are selling for $17k and that there are plenty of them to buy.

 

Because they don't and there isn't. Kindly post up all the WWII Thompsons presently for sale for $17k. Or any WWII Thompsons for sale at all.

 

Also, seeing as how WWII was the biggest and most dramatic event in human history and that the Thompson is one of the most iconic firearms ever made, I'm thinking that the WWII firearms collector market is going to be able to absorb the microscopic supply of full auto guns that come trickling onto the market as the baby boomers go belly up.

 

Have civil war guns and old west guns come down in price as the Hollywood western has gone out of style? Nope.

 

 

The supply of collector firearms is smaller than people think and the demand is higher than people think.

 

It's not like other collector markets like model trains. Lionel train sets were sold by the 10s of thousands for decades and decades and new sets still being made today, and the model railroading hobby dying off as the 1950s guys go to the big locomotive in the sky.

 

It's the exact opposite: the supply is fixed and microscopic and the demand grows every year. MGs have become the pinnacle of firearm collecting.

 

How many bona-fide Thompson Commercials will you see for sale in your whole life? One or two every 5 years in a country of 350 million people.

 

 

You guys can do what you want but every single guy I know who delayed buying an MG because he was waiting for the prices to drop and the "bubble to burst" ended up paying double.

 

People were talking about MG prices "dropping back down to sane levels" back when NIB M16s were selling for less than $10k.

 

Even the giant global bank swindle that crashed the whole world economy only caused a 25% drop in Mg prices as everyone scrambled to sell off their collectable stuff to pay down their 4th mortgage.

 

And the prices zoomed right back up in the face of a giant recession that followed. There are collectables that still have recovered yet and MG prices have doubled and tripled in that time.

 

 

When I bought my NIB Vector UZI for $7800, it caused snickering because I paid the full retail dealer price on it. I paid like $200 too much! What a dummy!

Edited October 19, 2017 by buzz

[lightguy]

Nice M1A1 at garner auctions 9/25 sold at 17K, also a couple WH guns sold for less in the same auction WH1928 $15,250, M11/9 $5250. Yes there are some coming up at Julias and I'm sure RIA in Dec. at least 2 in the brochure, colts though so far. No shortage predicted and we are awaiting some more boomers to hit room temp to turn loose some more. Even mine will be for sale at some point?

I just found out about another auction house like Garner auctions the other day looking for a car. AFAIK they specialise in "repos" etc.

Saying that an M1A1 sold there for 17K does not make the market. Its an anomaly. Hell if I had known about it before that might be coming to me for a bit more Seriously !

 

PS; Note to self..NEVER EVER consider selling a gun at Garner.

 

I'm tracking the Julia auction now and have my sights set on a "sleeper" Shhhhhh!

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Buzz,

I have to disagree with your above post a bit. I have collected military stuff since I was very young. I am 49 now. The interest in older military stuff is waning as time goes on. Yes the prices go up a bit but there are less people buying it. How many kids are collecting civil war stuff? I don't know any. Not many young people even know much about WWI or WWII. Go to any militaria show and watch who is buying the stuff...older people. A good friend of mine is the VP of a big gun/militaria show here in PA and he said they cant get any young people to serve on the board. No interest. I sell stuff at our military vehicle clubs annual show and every year there are less and less people buying. 90% of what I sell is to people my age or older. Now the machine gun stuff is a different hobby of sorts. You have guys that are just gun collectors and nothing more, but the same trends are going on with that market too. Younger people buying now don't want the "old stuff". They want the most modern stuff they can buy...HK, M16 etc. This is why you can buy 2 or 3 '08 Maxims for what a drop in AR sears costs. Me..I would take the Maxim any day as I love the old weapons but most people my age and younger would grab the sear if given the choice. When I bought my Thompson I paid 3400. I could have had a new in box M16 for way less then. Now the M16 had passed my Thompson by about 10K. That is OK with me as I have no interest in M16's. I buy what I enjoy and have interest in. You cant always predict where the market on things will go, but you can get a good idea by watching things long enough. This trend holds true for most things lately...antique furniture, older cars etc. As for the Thompson, it will always have a place in history and will continue to be appreciated but other collectible guns wont appreciate along with them.

[huggytree]

i dont think people want Maxims because where you going to shoot it?....time to setup.....cant do an indoor range.....i guess if you own hundreds of acres and want to wake up the neighborhood its not bad....ive got (2) .223 guns and i rarely shoot them....hard to control, not nearly as much fun as subguns.......the further i get into the hobby the more i prefer the $6-8k gun over the $25-35k guns.....just as much fun if not more, you can shoot it w/o worries of scuffs/marks and in many cases they are just more fun to shoot....tube guns are amazingly smooth and light

[buzz]

Roland,

 

I think the supply of MGs is so tiny that the broad interests of the general public doesn't matter much.

 

Lionel made thousands upon thousands of train sets for decades on end and they continue to do so. Having model railroaders die off is going to demolish the collector value of those trains.

 

Compare that Niagra River of toy trains to the microscopic number of WII M1s and M1A1s in the registry. If 20 of them dribble onto the market a year, there are going to be 500 or 1000 high end gun collectors who want them.

 

 

How many young people know anything about the Roman empire or care? Hardly any.

 

But if 20 ultra-rare roman coins dribble onto the market each year, you can bet your sweet bippy that there will be wealthy buyers for those coins.

 

 

Aside from that, they always make movies about colorful periods of history like the gangster days and WWII.

 

That guarantees that there will always be a subculture of rabid collectors for the high end collector firearms that show up on the market.

 

 

I base the above opinion on watching high end historical collectables and artwork sell for increasingly huge sums.

 

Do baby boomers have some special emotional connection to a 1933 Mercedes 500K? Because they sell for $1,000,000.

 

You don't need high school kids to love 1930s cars in order to sell your 500K.

 

 

I think the guys who are waiting for MGs to drop in value are going to be disappointed.

 

Me, I've got my fingers crossed that 1971 hemi Cudas are going to drop down to $1,000. Any day noooowwwwwwwww.....

 

We shall see.

Edited October 19, 2017 by buzz

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Yes all those things you related above are true but the guys buying all that stuff are older retired guys. No new blood for the most part. You do need high school kids to take an interest in the collectible stuff or eventually only a small percentage of people will want the stuff. The muscle car era is starting to collapse too. Watch Barrett Jackson and compare the prices to cars a few years ago. Many dropped a lot. Those hemi cudas dropped too. I collect 60's mustangs and watch them pretty close. The Shelbys that were bringing 150-200 K a few years ago now dont even hit 100K. Look at Model A fords...when I was a kid they were decent money and now you can buy a real nice coupe or roadster for $12K. Not an easy sell anymore and kids have no interest in them for the most part. If no new blood takes an interest in the stuff we collect the market for the guns may change in the future. I agree with you on the prices will keep increasing for the immediate future unless something drastic happens to laws or tax stamp prices, world event or a depression. The huge downturn in the market a decade ago sent prices way down on a lot of guns. They have since bounced back but that could happen again. Times are changing in the world and not for the better.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Roland the Thompsongunner

[huggytree]

Every video game seems to be a shooter

Gun sales have gone through the roof for years

Lots of recent war vets

 

All good news for the future of fa guns.

 

What shooter doesnt want one if they could afford it. If fa was legal again and MACs were $200 they could run the factory day and night trying to keep up with demand

 

I was in the muscle car market a few years ago. I

Chose 2 new muscle cars over a 1970 Gto. New muscle runs circles around old cars. Sure the old ones will always be cool but my wifes 5.7 Ram pickup is as fast 0/60 as most of the muscle car era cars. Minivans are 0-60 in 7 seconds now

 

I said screw the investment Ill take a warranty and 200 mph w 3.5 second 0-60s

Edited October 19, 2017 by huggytree

[johnsonlmg41]

Being slightly older than Roland, I see the same thing he sees. Markets run a cycle depending on the interests of the generation with money. Millennials have no money and may not ever as a generation be that well off for a variety of reasons. Firearms and fast cars don't seem to be in their DNA anymore as well as culturally. If 20% of the nation is now current immigrants as I heard today, these are not multimillionaires coming in, they are typically impoverished and uneducated......democrat dream voters. They don't share any of these interests either and were mostly brought here to replenish the slave trade.

 

One day soon some jag with a self driving electric car will get driven to the starting line at the drag strip, whoop everyone there while fine tuning his chip with his smart phone, all the while never looking at the track or the tree since a sensor read the green in a microsecond. Then it's all over for another hobby.

 

I travel a lot, see a lot, and try to make sense of it and read the tea leaves, all for fun mostly but try to gauge economic trends for my business. It's like 2006 right now. If I put a Savage 28a1 up for sale will any of you pay 32K for it?

[Roland the Thompsongunner]

Thanks for clarifying my point much better. My two sons are perfect examples. Both teenagers. They each have an interest in my collection of guns and militaria but neither will ever be a collector. The young generation now dont seem to want to own anything ..not even a house. I think collecting of anything is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Sad in many ways.