Illicit Automatic Conversions of the Winchester Model 07 Self-loading Rifle in the 1930s

[HANS]

I am pleased to announce that my article on converted Winchester Model 07s used during the 1930s by the likes of the Dillinger Gang, Barker-Karpis Gang, Rettich Gang, etc, etc has now been published as the latest issue of ARMAX is shipping. You may remember ARMAX as the old journal published by the Winchester museum. The new ARMAX is still published by the Cody Firearms Museum, but it is a more international effort, with editors from ARES, the Royal Armouries, etc.

The converted Winchesters have interested me ever since I've seen two of them in the seized stash of the Dillinger Gang when they were arrested in 1934 in Tucson. My early research was encouraged by Sandy Jones (OCM) on this very site, but I've dug much deeper. Commonly called the "Lebman Carbines", I think I have been able to establish in the article that they probably aren't the work of Lebman. I've also found several more examples, and also found that criminals used a number of conversions to 9mm, complete with drum mags and suppressors!

ARMAX is currently also running a kickstarter to reissue the old ARMAX journals in a slightly new format (mainly colour photos).

 

Cheers

 

HANS

 

 

[Colt Chopper]

Interesting, thanks for posting.

[BillyDixon]

before 1934 ,,before the NFA there was nothing considered illeagle about the 1907 converison,,or any other converison,,, just sayn

[HANS]

6 hours ago, BillyDixon said:

before 1934 ,,before the NFA there was nothing considered illeagle about the 1907 converison,,or any other converison,,, just sayn

 

Actually, a number of states made "machine guns" illegal before that, including California (1927), the District of Columbia (1932), Illinois (1931), Indiana (1927), Iowa (1927), Kansas (1933), Massachusetts (1927), Michigan (1927), Missouri (1929), New Jersey (1927), New York (1931), Ohio (1933), Pennsylvania (1929), Rhode Island (1927), West Virginia (1925), Texas (1933), Virginia (1933), Washington (1933), and Wisconsin (1933).

 

Also, the article is not only about the conversions themselves, but their users. Every single one of them was seized from a bank robber, kidnapper, or armed thief.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited June 9, 2023 by HANS

[BillyDixon]

interesting data ! do you think the guy on the street cared,, best regards, just sayn

[HANS]

18 minutes ago, BillyDixon said:

do you think the guy on the street cared

 

I do, because the legal situation, among other things, led to "regular machine guns" (ie, Thompsons) becoming scarcer on the open market. Eventually, Auto-Ordnance shut down all trade except with the military in 1930, and when they started selling to non-military buyers again, in 1932, they were much stricter about their buyers, having everything go through Federal Ordnance. As Thompsons became more difficult to get, discriminating buyers like all the gangs I mention in the article started to look elsewhere. This is when the conversions showed up. And of course they continued to be used after 1934 ...

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[johnsonlmg41]

Sounds like something I'd love to read, but at $100, not going to happen.  I have a full set of the forgotten Winchesters and have gunsmithed on all of them bringing them all to shooting condition.   Is there an alternative way to view just your article at a lower cost? I've never actually heard of ARMAX before your post? Maybe a pic of the table of contents would sway me?  The website and kickstarter page offer no information as to the content of any of the journals? 

What's the source that MG's were illegal in the various states pre-1934?  Oddly, they are legal now in many of those states listed?  Or were they just not legal for game hunting purposes?

[HANS]

13 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Sounds like something I'd love to read, but at $100, not going to happen.  I have a full set of the forgotten Winchesters and have gunsmithed on all of them bringing them all to shooting condition.   Is there an alternative way to view just your article at a lower cost? I've never actually heard of ARMAX before your post? Maybe a pic of the table of contents would sway me?  The website and kickstarter page offer no information as to the content of any of the journals? 

What's the source that MG's were illegal in the various states pre-1934?  Oddly, they are legal now in many of those states listed?  Or were they just not legal for game hunting purposes?

 

Individual issues cost $55, which is still a lot but not $100. You can get them from Headstamp, who do a lot of marvelous books and sell all the ARMAX back issues. I don't think they offer individual articles for sale.

You can view the table of contents of this issue (Vol.VIII No.2) here. ARMAX was the house magazine of the Winchester Museum in the 1980s and 1990s, with editor Herbert Houze. It has recently been revived, now by the Cody Firearms Museum but with a wider purview, with several European museums and international experts on board. It differs from other firearms magazines in using double blind peer reviews (ie, like in other scientific publications, the articles are checked by several subject matter experts who do not know the author and thus check them without personal bias). I can tell you that the article is the culmination of at least 10 years of research, featuring many new discoveries and hitherto unseen photos (that is, unseen in the books and articles available on the topic so far).

As to the laws, I've got these from several legal articles as well as from many period articles as part of my ongoing research of the firearms use in the 1920s and 1930s.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

 

[johnsonlmg41]

Hans,

thanks for the links.  $63 shipped, effectively for your article since the table of contents offers nothing else remotely interesting to me.    How about I paypal you $20 and you email me a copy of your work?  I don't know how it all works on your end or if you've sold your rights to the work, or any of the details on how the arrangements work with publishers, the museum, or any of the rest of it?   I am totally ignorant of that actual "industry".  

On a side note, I'm not even sure how your work gets "peer reviewed", since I'd guess you have no peers when it comes to this particular subject?  Very limited interest topic, even here, where the guns/gangsters have a pretty small following?

 

[HANS]

On 6/11/2023 at 6:32 PM, johnsonlmg41 said:

Hans,

thanks for the links.  $63 shipped, effectively for your article since the table of contents offers nothing else remotely interesting to me.    How about I paypal you $20 and you email me a copy of your work?  I don't know how it all works on your end or if you've sold your rights to the work, or any of the details on how the arrangements work with publishers, the museum, or any of the rest of it?   I am totally ignorant of that actual "industry".  

On a side note, I'm not even sure how your work gets "peer reviewed", since I'd guess you have no peers when it comes to this particular subject?  Very limited interest topic, even here, where the guns/gangsters have a pretty small following?

 

 

I've talked to the publisher and they actually do offer individual articles. You can buy this one as a PDF for $20. Talk to Caitlin Fitz Gerald at Helios House (caitlin@helios.house).

As to the peer review process, this doesn't mean that the folks who reviewed the article are necessarily knowledgable about the specific topic (in this case, the Winchester conversions and the specific gangs who used them) -- if they were, they could have written the article. What they bring to the table is usually different, but relevant knowledge. For example, one of the reviewers was the curator of the Cody Firearms Museum, who not only knows everything about the regular Winchester Model 07, he also knows where to find specific references in their archives (production figures, patents, trial designs, etc). And in the end, there's several layers of editorial oversight, which ensures that the article is easy to read (that includings spelling and punctuation), that the information is presented in a logical and complete way, that the sources are correct, and so on.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

 

 

[johnsonlmg41]

Got it.  Sent her an email.  Thank you!

[johnsonlmg41]

Finally got it the other day.  I found it to be well worth the $20.  Lots of fascinating info.  It would be interesting to see one of the variations mentioned in person?  I'm now probably in the market looking for another 1907 to do a 9mm conversion on?  I guess that was the original "camp carbine"?

[HANS]

3 hours ago, johnsonlmg41 said:

Finally got it the other day.  I found it to be well worth the $20.  Lots of fascinating info.  It would be interesting to see one of the variations mentioned in person?  I'm now probably in the market looking for another 1907 to do a 9mm conversion on?  I guess that was the original "camp carbine"?

 

Thanks, high praise! Good that it all worked out. The format is a bit small to my liking, but I gather that it is the format of the original ARMAX journal and they decided to stick with it.

Yeah, seeing these things up close, handling them or even firing them would be interesting, but is unlikely. I had approached the FBI Firearms Curator years ago, he couldn't even comment. I am unsure whether the FBI still displays one of the guns in their museum in DC, but even if they do, foreigners like myself aren't invited. Also, most of the FBI samples won't fire any more, they nearly always deactivated them. The conversion still in Tuscon can at least be oggled to the best of my knowledge, but Tucson is a bit out of the way ...

Those 9-mm conversions sure look cute, I agree. Would be interesting to see how they handle without the stock, they don't look that unbalanced without the mag. The drum, of course, is an ergonomical abomination just like it was on the original Luger l.P.08 and even on the Bergmann M.P.18,I.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

 

[jl7422]

Pre-pandemic, the Tucson '07 was on public display in the downtown lobby of the Tucson PD, along with a couple of Thompsons from the gang. Access to the lobby was restricted, but allowed for the stated reason of viewing of the arms collection. I do not know if this is the current situation.  

[jim c 351]

Has anyone ever fired a full auto Win 07??  

Does anyone know someone who fired such a conversion??

 I would guess that such a conversion would have a cyclic ROF over 800 RPM. A Win 07 has a pretty health recoil on semi, on FA it would less controllable than an M14. 

A  10 shot mag would empty in the blink of an eye. A robber would spend more time changing mags than shooting.

Jim C

[HANS]

8 hours ago, jim c 351 said:

 I would guess that such a conversion would have a cyclic ROF over 800 RPM. A Win 07 has a pretty health recoil on semi, on FA it would less controllable than an M14. 

A  10 shot mag would empty in the blink of an eye. A robber would spend more time changing mags than shooting.

 

Ah, you haven't read the article 😉 

I discuss possible rate of fires, including a quote from a (different) factory conversion at Winchester.

I also show that most of these guns weren't used with the puny 10-rounders, but either with 25-round boxes or, in case of the 9-mm conversions, with 25-round drums.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[jim c 351]

Hans,

You got me, I haven't read your article. I'm sure its a very nice article.

I seem to remember that John Browning once modified a WRA 1873 lever action rifle to fire semi auto. So anything is possible.

I don't doubt that more than one gunsmith converted a WRA 07 to fire FA. I don't doubt that someone once welded 3 10 shot mags together, rumor has it that Clyde Barrow once did that with BAR mags.

I just doubt that such a mod was historically significant . It was just a silly modification that makes a serious and effective rifle into something noisy and uncontrollable.

But, as you pointed out, I haven't read your article.

And as I pointed out, You never shot a FA WRA 07. ( and neither has anyone you know.)

Jim C 

PS I don't doubt  that Sandy would have loved your article.

[johnsonlmg41]

The argument can be made that since more than one gang from the period used them in robberies, it's significant.  MG's are generally for suppressive fire, so even if uncontrollable, it serves the purpose.

After reading the article and putting a 9mm round in the chamber, I think a conversion of a ratty 1907 is in my future, perhaps over winter?  I'd trim the barrel and maybe thread it, but don't know that I would cut the stock off unless I can find some repro's somewhere?  If only I could wedge an HK trigger pack in there!  LOL

It is my personal opinion that the drum wasn't really a thing in the luger, but propaganda to obscure the MP18i trench broom.  I don't feel the drums are awkward or unbalanced in the MP18, in my personal experience as a current owner of both styles.  I'd always prefer 32 over 20 no matter what in a SMG.

[jl7422]

I have asked on a couple of occasions if anyone has seen or shot a F/A '07 and received no response. Sandy and his historian colleague Sheriff Ernie were researching the topic of the original Lebman conversions at the time of their passing.

As I recall, from the external examination I could make of the Tucson gun through the glass, there was no evidence of a selector switch or any external modification to the trigger group.  Sandy crafted a very credible semi-auto example of the well worn Tucson gun using the Bull Creek parts available at the time. 

[HANS]

7 hours ago, jim c 351 said:

Hans,

You got me, I haven't read your article. I'm sure its a very nice article.

I seem to remember that John Browning once modified a WRA 1873 lever action rifle to fire semi auto. So anything is possible.

I don't doubt that more than one gunsmith converted a WRA 07 to fire FA. I don't doubt that someone once welded 3 10 shot mags together, rumor has it that Clyde Barrow once did that with BAR mags.

I just doubt that such a mod was historically significant . It was just a silly modification that makes a serious and effective rifle into something noisy and uncontrollable.

But, as you pointed out, I haven't read your article.

And as I pointed out, You never shot a FA WRA 07. ( and neither has anyone you know.)

Jim C 

PS I don't doubt  that Sandy would have loved your article.

 

You are right, (probably) nobody in modern times has fired a full-auto Winchester Model 07, I certainly didn't. All the actual conversions mentioned in the article aren't available for that. However, as early as 1909, Franklin Knous of Winchester patented a full-auto conversion, clearly thinking there was some potential there. We probably all have read about the selective-fire Model 07s that were supposed to have been used by the French military in WWI, although I personally think that those didn't exist (I've never seen a French source on this) and that the flimsy evidence for them is ambiguous.

You are probably also right that the things had a good kick and weren't very controllable on full-auto (although I do note that the original-calibre conversions had a Cutts compensator and a foregrip, both of which surely help in that regard). Then again, we've seen millions of H&K G3s, FN FALs, Springfield M14s etc, all firing a more energetic cartridge and lacking said comp and grip, being reasonably effective (though it is telling that many of these patterns were converted to semi-only even in military service).

None of these conversions were selective-fire, they only had full-auto.

However, all of this misses the point. The bank robbers of the 1930s didn't look for tight groups. They needed "machine guns" for daylight heists in an era in which most of the rural towns they targeted had well-organised vigilante organisations. At that point, Thompsons were scarce and expensive. These conversions were cheaper, they looked aggressive, and they fired bursts. That's all they needed to threaten bank employees or hose down innercity streets in order to keep down the heads of vigilantes and traffic cops.

As to whether the whole thing was historically significant -- I guess it wasn't. There were all of four of the .351-calibre ones and perhaps eight of the 9-mm guns.

But that isn't the question, because clearly they are historically interesting. People look at the famous displays of the Dillinger Gang weapons and go; "What's THAT?" People like Sandy or me actually tried to find out what that is. Others build replicas, because they simply look cool. Heck, there was one in the Public Enemies film by Michael Mann. Further, it is interesting in light of how people try to circumvent a dearth of a commodity (ie, Thompsons), and how far the grey market in the 1930s did spread guns (check out the article to read about all the different gangs, I really think that is fascinating).

 

PS I've got another article slated for publication that deals with the Bergmann M.P.18,I, as long as we talk about that 😉

 

Cheers

 

HANS

 

 

[HANS]

18 hours ago, jim c 351 said:

 I don't doubt that someone once welded 3 10 shot mags together, rumor has it that Clyde Barrow once did that with BAR mags.

 

Ah, I missed that. No, the 25-rounders were not welded together 10-rounders like the 20-rounder displayed in the Cody Firearms Museum (and seen in most photos on the web). They were professionally made by an unknown gunsmith, with a seemless body, in the article I show several period photos as well as a modern photo graciously provided by USMC0802 of this very site.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited July 6, 2023 by HANS
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