Cleo's Can Be Real Pita's

[Chromebolt]

I submitted my form 4 - 12 days ago. I know the Chief Deputy pretty well (we used to work together at the Sheriff's dept). He told me they needed a release form so they can complete the background before they sign off on my paperwork. This wasn't required for my SBR 4 months ago. This isn't necesary to run my NCIC check. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/slap.gif

 

Hopefully these guys will get this simple paperwork done soon.

 

CB

[michael]

yes they can. I submitted form 4's with a nice cover letter,etc. Nine months later with no signatures I formed an LLC and went with corporate transfer. 3 years and a bunch of form 4's later I should have done it after waiting 1 week!

 

The worst was they never said no, just kept giving me the run around. I never did get a "no" response or my package returned to me.

[Hawkeye_Joe]

Had 5 smg's signed off and the Sherriff told me finally, after a month's run around, that he thought I had enough machineguns and didn't want to sign the last one. I also went Corporate..

[docmolar]

Mine signs off while I am getting finger printed and gives right back to me. I`m lucky I guess.

[KTRIP]

My CLEO is giving me the run around too. How hard is to set up a LLC?

[Norm]

Thank God for the TN State Law: http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif

 

39-17-1361. Execution of documents by sheriff or chief of police.

 

The sheriff or chief of police of the city of residence of a person purchasing any firearm, defined by the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. § 5845 et seq., shall execute within fifteen (15) business days of any request all documents required to be submitted by the purchaser if the purchaser is not prohibited from possessing firearms pursuant to § 39-17-1316.

 

[Acts 2003, ch. 275, § 1.]

 

CLEO must do the paperwork! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif

 

My CLEO letter is done while I wait. Usually 30-45 minutes. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif

 

Norm

 

[michael]

For me the LLC went fairly smooth. I did have an attorney draw up the papers and submit them to the state. A few weeks later I received a nice certificate from the state. I include a copy of this with my transfers.

 

Some states have an online form for LLC's. Mine has some specifics for estate purposes so I did not pursue this route. I have had a realtive pass away with NFA and it was problematic. This way the LLC never dies and the guns do not have to be transfered.

 

People have also had sucess with Trusts.

 

Once a year I get a form from the state and check "no change" and send a check for $35 to keep the LLC up to date. This is very important because if the CORP or LLC are not current guns are contraband and can be taken.

 

Just to be safe I have my tax person prepare a return with all zero's for the LLC. I may be over doing it, but I don't take any chances.

[TSMG28]

I went the corporate route as well. Even though I live in Ohio, which is generally a gun-friendly state, there is not a single CLEO in my county who will sign the paperwork. The Sheriff is a Republican, but he is scared of political fallout in a campaign when it becomes known that he "approved" private persons buying machine guns. At least he is honest enough to say NO to my face and tell me why. No amount of reasoning on my part could get him to change his answer.

 

So I went the corporate route and dutifully fill out my paperwork each year. At least there is not an annual fee in Ohio. Like Michael, I put all zeros on my tax return. I could legitimately claim travel, ammo and other expenses on the return since I registered the corp as "Educational" with the expressed purpose of Firearms Education, but I have decided to keep things simple so nobody can accuse me of using the corp for a tax dodge. Personal choice. Others might feel differently.

 

I also have my C&R registered to the corporation.

 

I would love to live in a state with the TN law, but I will settle for what I have. At least I can own and shoot NFA here!

 

 

[Norm]

QUOTE

I would love to live in a state with the TN law, but I will settle for what I have. At least I can own and shoot NFA here!

 

I only hope they (the Feds) don't change the rules and make the restrictions tighter for corps to own NFA items.

 

Afterall, the May '86 ban was signed into law for no real reason. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/banghead.gif For some reason they thought that MGs should stop going on the registry. There were no crimes being commited with them or problems with the owners.

 

This is what scares me. They may just one day think "no one needs a supressor or a short barrel on anything", and BANG...no more supressors, SBRs, or SBSs on the register (just because they don't like them. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/nono.gif )

 

Good luck to all seeking the CLEO letter. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cop.gif I guess that I am just very lucky in the state I live in.

 

Norm

 

[October1971]

FWIW in my 30+ years of SOT, I've found the following:

 

 

1. Some individuals have sued the CLEO and forced him to sign "on the courthouse steps."

2. Others have sued and lost.

3. Others have sued and won.

4. In all above cases, it wouldn't be worth the money...

 

5. I finally convinced a new Florida Sheriff to sign for 10-12 of my customers right after he got elected. I had to visit his office

3-4 times to discuss the process. What finally put him over the top was my giving him an example of an individual taking out

a SOT license (without the Sheriff's knowledge) and the Class 3 then buys 100 MAC 10'S W/ SUPPRESSORS. He then

"reports them stolen" out of his van at the Tampa International Airport...

SOoooo...now Mr. Sheriff, you have 100 smgs with silencers floating around your county and you don't know WHO has them

or WHERE they are. He signed for awhile and then stopped cold turkey later.

 

6. On the corporate route, the earlier posters are correct. Do everything by the book. Don't try to take advantage of the

system for tax purposes.

And remember, if you DO dissolve the corporation, like they pointed out, the firearms MUST be transferred out prior to

dissolving the corp.

 

And yes, you could sell this particular "designated corporation" to another party, and the NFA items as "assets" of the corp go with the sale, with no notice required to feds of the "new corporate owners" and no transfer forms required. But you better not do this if you know for a fact that the new principal owner of the corp has a record that will keep him form legally owning firearms.

 

Finally,

On the CLEO signatures, don't overlook a couple of prospective sources:

 

1. Prosecuting States Atty

2. Judges having jurisdiction in your area

 

These and "anyone else acceptable to the Bureau" may sign. I was once told that the Feds use the basic criteria of: "Does the person signing the form have access to an NCIC machine and can run a back ground check out of his/her agency/office? "

 

I've had good results with getting friendly with court deputy sheriffs who "are friendly with some of the judges" (especially those retiring in a year or two) who have finally said they would sign.

 

Advantages of Corporate route: No photograph, no finger prints, no CLEO needed.

Disadvantages of " " : Must get rid of guns if ever dissolve corp. Cost and a little aggravation in keeping corp. current.

 

Advantage of getting CLEO or others to sign: You, Personally, own the items forever (until banned by Hillary, Shumer, etc.)

 

Some long-time SOT holders have felt that the corporate route will eventually bring down the class 3 system because it appears to be a "loophole." Others see it as perfectly legit way of accumulating "investor assets" which may be sold many years from now at a substantial profit.

 

Lastly, if you are a SOT and you sell to a corporation, please Don't forget to complete the secondary form that the principal owner must sign stating he has the authority of the corp to possess the asset... this will trip you up on an inspection Big Time.

 

In fact, most people don't realize that this must be done even when an FFL is selling the corporation a Title 1 gun (rifle pistol, shotgun etc.) It used to be stated right on the back of the Yellow 4473. I haven't looked at the NEW current White "yellow" form, but presume the language is the same. (Includes partnerships too)

 

Hope this helps some of the parties new to the game.

 

Bill D

[Z3BigDaddy]

QUOTE (docmolar @ Aug 3 2006, 09:16 PM)

Mine signs off while I am getting finger printed and gives right back to me. I`m lucky I guess.

Same here... I've done 8 in the last year.... No probs at all..... But I'm in gut nut central where I live in Oregon.. I guess Del Norte people in the Portland/Salem area is hit and miss.....

[John Jr]

QUOTE (Norm @ Aug 4 2006, 09:02 AM)

Thank God for the TN State Law: http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif 39-17-1361. Execution of documents by sheriff or chief of police. The sheriff or chief of police of the city of residence of a person purchasing any firearm, defined by the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. § 5845 et seq., shall execute within fifteen (15) business days of any request all documents required to be submitted by the purchaser if the purchaser is not prohibited from possessing firearms pursuant to § 39-17-1316. [Acts 2003, ch. 275, § 1.] CLEO must do the paperwork! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/woot.gif My CLEO letter is done while I wait. Usually 30-45 minutes. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif Norm

VERY nice. Each state should adopt this that allows MG and silencers for civies.

[Waffen Und Bier]

BEING a CLEO is a PITA. Worst four years of my LE career. You answer to one boss (a city administrator or mayor) who is clueless as to how a police department should be run. The city administrator answers to five elected officials and only has to keep 3 of 5 happy (and usually has a year or better contract). A CLEO serves at will from day to day usually with no contract and answers to one easily "piss- offable", clueless, self-serving, bureaucrat. Easy for a CLEO to lose one's job over a stand on principals or difference of opinion (I did). That said, I signed 16 form 4's and 1's during my time as a CLEO with an approx. 30,000 population with no (zero, nada, none) murders during my time as chief. No other city in our county with a population over 10,000 could make that claim during that time period.

 

If there was no information indicating they would use the weapon for other than lawful purposes and didn't mind stopping by to chat for a while about C3 stuff and could promise me they had secure storage, I would sign. Never had a refusal.

 

The sheriff for the jurisdiction I live in now requires a lengthy background and a letter from your doctor saying you are mentally capable of possessing and using said firearm (even for LEO's), but at least he signs.

[Chromebolt]

I'm a LEO in a jurisdiction similar to where you were a CLEO. I live in a large County where the elected Sheriff does sign off on applications. And I used to work for his predecessor. I don't understand this release form which is not needed for the NCIC/State/local checks.

 

The Chief of Police where I work doesn't require this stuff. He does a NCIC/State/local check of any criminal involvement or suspicion and it is usually signed in a week. My spouse will check on the status Monday.

 

This is my first purchase for a full auto. Matbe I'm just anxious.

[Bounty1]

Talked to a "with it" BATFE agent last week at the Thompson Show and Shoot, and brought up this problem with CLEO's not wanting to sign off on Form 4's. He thought it was ridiculous. His advice was, if you run into this situation, to ask for a written letter from that CLEO stating why he/she will not sign off on the Form 4. If CLEO will not give you written reason, get person's title, and location, postition, etc.. (Tell him why if asked why you're asking for this, i.e., you are planning on contacting BATFE re: his/her refusal to sign off). Then contact BATFE with copy of written reason that they will not sign off, or with the other information about that person's position, etc., fact that they said "no", and would not even give you a written reason. This will give you leverage. Request that BATFE contact said person to explain law to them that sign-off doesn't mean "granting permission". BATFE guy advised there is no room for "personal opinion" allowed on whether he/she signs off. The law is on your side with this: sign off means 2 things: You are not a criminal, and there are no laws in your jurisdiction prohibiting your having your C3 item. Nothing else.

BATFE guy advised this will give you leveraqe with them, because according to him, this only makes their job harder, and it will give you clout with BATFE to get this matter resolved, and CLEO may have to explain to them why he/she won't sign off.

Just advising CLEO that you plan on doing this may be enough to get them to sign off, but if not, this will help you with BATFE to have them do get something done for you.

[Bounty1]

PhilOhio,

Glad I was able to make your day. A little further info on this. The BATFE guy I talked to works in their new HQ which has been moved to Martinsburg. WV , and he works in the NFA section, so I am inclined to take him with a bit more authority than a guy way out in the field who holds similar views. And we were in the DC area for this conversation. So this wasn't just one guy way out in the boondocks with his opinion. Thought I'd add that since he works at HQ.

Personally, I'd love to hear about some of these CLEOs getting contated by BATFE and asked, "What's your problem with this?" He was very aware of the fact that one has already bought a piece before he can get the CLEO sign off, and he felt it was just outrageous to do that to somebody. What are you supposed to do then? Anyway, I've talked to several people at the NFA section out there, and they seem willing to assist you, so don't be intimidated. Contact them if you have a problem with the CLEO sign-off.

 

Bounty1

[Chromebolt]

That's good info to know. I work with many fieldl agents who have similar opinions.

 

My wife contacted the deputy CLEO about this issue. It has been sitting on his desk for 2 weeks. He agreed to have it completed by Wed (of this week).

 

It is important to me, obviously not to him.

[Chromebolt]

Got the signed form today. My wife gets things done.

[Chromebolt]

She has a birthday this month. Actually i was thinking about 2k of 45 acp would do the trick.

 

She can have my Kahr SBR TM1 for Christmas (which shoots very good).