Pricing A Savage 1928?

[DINK]

A gent has asked me to help him sell his Thompson. I have been looking through the various boards and can't find an example of what he's got for sale at this time so I would welcome constructive advice on how to price it.

 

He bought the gun from a police department quite a few years ago and as far as I can tell, it's a Savage commercial 1928. I have only field-stripped it, not detail-stripped it, and it appears to be all correct, with "S" marked bolt, actuator, etc. The upper and lower match, the serial number has the "S" prefix, and it has all the 1928 features: Cutts, Lyman rear sight, etc.

 

I would say the gun is in about 85% condition, with no major damage but a lot of minor handling marks, which is typical of a P.D. gun. It supposedly comes with one L drum and a bunch of sticks, but I haven't seen them yet.

 

I feel obligated to give this my best effort and would appreciate any assistance the knowledgable members of this board would be willing to offer. I am working on photos.

 

Thanks in advance.

[DINK]

I'm going by the description in Tracy Hill's book. The gun doesn't have any military proofs, like the "flaming bomb".

 

I could easily be wrong, which is why I am posting here.

[John Jr]

We need pictures (really good ones) before anyone can venture a reasonable guess.

[rjb1]

I have one which is very similar to the one Dink describes. I am curious if the one he has is labeled as "Model of 1928" only, as mine is (no US, no A1, and did not have those ground off).

Mine is also a Savage and has no military marks or proofs, and it also was bought from a PD.

From reading books and from discussion here, it seems that even though they are Savages and are commercial (i.e. non-military), they aren't the same as what collectors traditionally refer to as "Savage Commercials".

Is there some other label or descriptive term that is or should be applied to our guns? (Police-issue Thompsons, perhaps?) Adding to what Phil said, does anyone know of any such as these that were wartime-produced but not military marked that didn't originally go to a police agency?

 

Joel

 

(My serial number is in the 136000 range.)

[bug]

DINK, what is the serial number range?

 

Bob D

[1921A]

True Savage commercial guns are quite a find. Here are my observations regarding the “commercial gun” features:

 

The serial number range is generally 25,000 or lower although rumor has it a few have been found with a slightly higher numbers.

 

The receivers are marked "Model of 1928" without military proofs/ordnance marks, but all the specimens I've seen have the GEG proof. The roll marked address is New York, NY not Bridgeport, CT.

 

Actuator, safety and rocker controls are finely checkered like the Colt Guns.

 

Bolt, butt stock latch and certain trigger frame internals are nickel steel like the Colt.

 

The receivers are polished smooth and bead blasted. They have a “frosty” deep blue/black finish. Barrels and compensators are bright royal blue similar to the Colt finish. Compensators had "Cutts" diamond logo but not Thompson "Bullet" logo.

 

All wood is finely shaped and finished. Wood to metal fit is excellent like the Colt guns. One of mine had “anchor” stamp on butt stock and no marks on vertical fore grip.

 

I personally believe these guns were made up from leftover Colt era parts. The ones I've seen show 1940-1942 purchase dates on surviving invoices. They were sold direct to LE agencies. It appears AOC may have made them up for that purpose and then shipped out orders until they ran out.

 

Anybody have additional info on these? I've been fascinated by them for years but there is very little documented.

 

Greg Fox

[DINK]

Guys;

 

I'm trying to figure out how to load pictures on Tiny Pic.com, but nothing seems to be happening.

 

The Thompson does not have any other markings before or after "Model of 1928" (no U.S., no A1, no X) and nothing has been ground out.

 

As described in Mr. Hill's book, it has the NY address on the right side and the flat ejector. It's blued nicely, doesn't have Brit proofs, and the bolt is in the white. The serial number is S-184XX.

 

Thanks again. I'll keep trying on the photos. Suggestions on image hosting very welcome!)

[Norm]

QUOTE

The serial number is S-184XX.

 

Wow! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif

 

That's a low number!

 

Norm

 

[Norm]

DINK,

 

If you can't get your photos to post, email them to me and I'll post them for you through photobucket.com

 

Norm

[rjb1]

I didn't mean to intrude too much on DINK's question, but I thought at first that we had two of exactly the same kind. It appears that there are more differences than I first thought, and I hope no one minds if we discuss these two in parallel.

Sounds like his is in the proper range to be a traditional "Savage Commercial".

 

Mine is well higher than that and has the Bridgeport address, not NY. It has the GEG mark, but no others. Finish is more matte black (DuLite?) than polished. It has a vertical foregrip.

The actuator and only one of the fire controls knobs is knurled (can't remember which). The barrel and compensator are bright blue and I think the comp has the bullet logo.

I have been curious about the genealogy of this one for years. Any info is appreciated.

 

Joel

[October1971]

I concur with the above posts. At one time I had two Savaga Commercials. Both had the NY address rather than the later Bridgeport. Both had a "S" on the rearmost barrel fin. Both had flat commercial ejectors and both were gray black receivers with blued barrels. Going from memory, one was around 25,000 serial # range and the other was under 35,000. I'd have to pull my records to see for sure how high the highest number was on the 2nd gun.

 

It is interesting that most of the evidence points to direct PD sales on these early "commercial" Savages. And I also agree they are worth quite a premium more than a straight military U.S. gun.

 

In my early days of collecting I started out with same goal as quite a few other T-gun collectors:

 

21A, 21AC, 21/28 Navy, 28 "commercial Navy" with horizontal forearm and offset sling swivels, 27AC and 27A semi-auto, commercial Savage 28, U.S. Mil. 28A1, M1, M1A1, British proofed 28A1 with vertical foregrip, sling swivel on top the butt stock. (That one came from the Taladaga, AL police deptl.) etc.

 

It would be interesting to know how many collectors out there have gone the full route and "crossed over" to Colt commercial AND military variations, versus the guys who wanted one VERY nice Colt, or ONLY WWII military.

 

Oh, and yes, I included the WH 28 in both .45 and full-auto .22 in my "type collection" of Thompson SMGs.

 

 

 

[TAS1921AC]

DINK, rjb1, Are either of your magazine catches checkered without the hole?

[DINK]

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q263/Newgun/5807384d.jpg

 

Looks like Photobucket works for my home computer, or I finally figured out how to do it correctly. Anyway, above is a shot of the Thompson in question.

 

Happy Thanksgiving to you all.

[bug]

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i146/mgbug/IMG_2268.jpg

 

 

PhotoBucket Gooooood. Nice gun. Here's mine It's 16 thou range. Happy TG to all.

 

Bob D

[Balder]

Here's mine, S-245XX

 

Balder

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/Balder_/Thompson/tstampings006.jpg

[John Jr]

$35000

[DINK]

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q263/Newgun/DSC_0024.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q263/Newgun/DSC_0020.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q263/Newgun/DSC_0009.jpg

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q263/Newgun/DSC_0007.jpg

 

Boy, I'm starting to like Photobucket. John Jr, thank you very much for a hard figure. I was starting to wonder if anyone was going to offer a guess. Above are some additional photos. The very worst damage to the gun is the small chip out of the bottom of the rear grip and the patch of wear on the left rear corner of the receiver, which I have documented. The rest of the gun has a lot of minor handling wear and normal shooting wear. My time was limited with the gun, so I didn't have a chance to "doll it up" for the photos. I suppose a little time with some cleaning gear would make it look even better.

 

Any other opinions on value? I really appreciate the help.

 

 

[DINK]

Phil;

 

Thanks for the kind words on my photographic efforts. When you consider I was using a new and unfamiliar digital camera and only had time to toss an old bedsheet on my workbench as a backdrop and start shooting, they didn't come out too badly. If I had had time to set up some diffuse lighting and actually read the instruction manual for the camera they probably would have been better.

 

It would have helped it I had had time to clean the gun up a little also, but I grabbed it right out of the gun case and that was the first time I had clapped eyes on it.

 

The owner is a member of a local P.D. and he bought the gun directly from that department years ago, so it seems to be a pretty good example of a police firearm. They usually don't get shot much, spend most of their lives locked away in an armory, don't go out to play in the rain or snow, and get handled a lot. They are the firearms equivalent of the car owned by the little elderly lady- very little milage on the engine, but minor dents and dings everywhere. I'm just glad they didn't whip out the old engraving pencil and start decorating it with initials and numbers.

 

If nobody else wants to offer an opinion, I'll be posting it on some of the major Class III boards and I'll be hitting it high. No offense, but I have found that it's a lot easier to lower a price than raise it.

 

If anyone has questions, I will be happy to answer them to the best of my ability and I can get the gun back in for more photos if that would be desirable.

 

Thanks for the help.

[colt21a]

best guess start at $100,000.00 and as you said go down from there.

 

with the current trend in pricing...there will be no collector's left in future anyhow... it will just be guy's from the 70's and 80's..who have old stock they bought pretty cheap...and have not bought another class three gun since they all hit $10,000.00 anyhow..or the mac-11 guy who just paid $5,000.00 for his cased set. winK! and the picture collector's.and all us story teller's. of good and some bad day's gone by:

 

of well oiled safe queen's.never seeing the light of day. of the less then dozen super money collector's.that seem to have it all.{ just not enough good health left to really enjoy it all}

 

and the one's who post on the net...he-he...

 

i've only had one brit correct bringback gun and one savage commercial.i did that "get every model thompson thing"

 

after i had them all in one room.. i asked myself..now what am i going to do??? look at them and myself in the mirror and said i did it. or cure cancer? give to the poor?and adopt lost puppie's..double wink!

 

nobody trully want's to admit or look at how the hobby has changed in the past ten year's or so.

 

or how they have.. it's all a life phase.

 

we do it we go through it.and we all someday admit it.

{ well some do}

 

like coin's cycle's, car's boat's and plane's..like my now deceased buddy from dyer indiana,"Frank Watson" would say it's whatever trip's your trigger..

 

poor Frank died of a attack in his garage while working on his "67" dresser.next to his toy car collection..

 

so tell your buddy sell it now enjoy life.it sometime's is not all about what you had ,have had,or think you are going to have,

 

now back to the CHRISTMAS { 1940'S}SONG'S ON THE RADIO........and BATTLEGROUND ON THE D.V.D.

 

wink! take care RON

[billatlanta]

DINK,

Very nice looking gun.

Looks like all the experts here agree it's a real fine example and should bring a premium.

However, as the seller, you know that being both unique and above average condition both serve to make it more difficult to find it a home, but no need to blow it out and sell for average.

 

your [/quote My time was limited with the gun, so I didn't have a chance to "doll it up" for the photos. I suppose a little time with some cleaning gear would make it look even better.

]

I think you were correct in not touching it, any attempts to "doll it up" from here would only diminish it's authentic "charm/character" and diminish it's value to a true collector. Check to make sure the mechanics are clean and lightly oiled is all I'd do unless it's going into long storage.

What a relief to see a couple that have not been varnished.

You're getting some good advice from Phil, Ron and the others here, and I think you're doing the owner a good service by offering it to be critiqued.

Thanks for sharing.

Bill

 

[DINK]

Thanks, Bill;

 

Believe me- I have no intention of altering anything on the gun. A little brushing with a nylon toothbrush to get old dirt and grease out of the corners, a wipe-down with a silicone cloth, and that's it. Fortunately, there's not a trace of rust anywhere on it (visible via a field-strip). Of course, I could always send it out to be stripped and chrome-plated! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif That would sure boost it's value- NOT.

 

I have learned things during this exchange and I appreciate the members here taking the time to respond with valuable information. I am far from a Thompson expert (I can only afford a WH 1928 myself), but I feel obligated to do the best I can for the seller, as he is trusting me to do so.

[sevengunner]

DINK,

 

Please do NOT scrub with a nylon brush. Depending on what chemical you scrub with, you could end up putting a slight polish to the finish. You're best served to just leaving the gun alone and sell it "as-is."

 

Another picture is needed to establish that your gun is 100% Savage Commercial Model of 1928. The compensator should be a 2nd generation with the high, peaked blade.

 

Also, while your gun appears to have original finish, another set of pics could corroborate this. What are the areas on the interior and exterior of your gun that are left as bare, unfinished metal? When you peek inside the chamber, is it blued, or is it bare "white" metal?

 

The original Savage Commercial guns were released from the factory with recoil spring guides without the hole. Additionally, how is the "S" on your actuator and recoil spring guide -- round 'S' or squared off kind of like this '5' (Chicopee Falls)?

 

Additionally, the buttplate on the stock should be a true "blue" (as in Colt blue) versus a dull parkerize.

 

Please post some more pics and an e-mail address. I may make you an offer.

 

Regards,

 

Sven

 

 

 

 

 

[October1971]

Sevengunner,

 

Can you point me towards the documentation or source on the Commercial Savages being released from the factory with recoil pilot rods not having a hole in them? Just curious how that info came to light. Maybe it's in one of the reference text books on Tommy guns.

Many thanks!

 

October 71

[DINK]

I can tell you for sure that the recoil spring guide doesn't have a hole in it. What a total PITA to reassemble! As far as the comp is concerned, I can tell you that it has the diamond-shaped Cutts logo, not the bullet-shaped Thompson logo, but I have no idea on the shape of the sight itself. The one photo I have of it isn't one of the better ones.

 

Also I never looked inside the chamber and don't recall the shade of blue on the buttplate. I'll have the owner bring the gun back for more photos.

 

Just click on the "e-mail" button to send me a message. If there are specific photos desired, just let me know. The gun is for sale and a reasonable offer would certainly be considered, but it's up to the owner.

[sevengunner]

QUOTE

Can you point me towards the documentation or source on the Commercial Savages being released from the factory with recoil pilot rods not having a hole in them? Just curious how that info came to light. Maybe it's in one of the reference text books on Tommy guns. Many thanks!

 

10/1971--

 

There's no specific documentation. To date, I have examined 6 Commercial Savages that appear all original, and they all have the older version guide rods without the hole.

 

Best Regards,

Sven